Posted on 09/26/2004 10:53:56 AM PDT by daybreakcoming
I have a question about something that has rocked me to my Baptist core. I am also going to address the question to our pastor next week. My eight-year old brought home a study guide for parents to assist us in the "nuturing the faith of your child". It states: "Children are sinners and the implications are eternal" - "Our children are helpless sinners who deserve God's wrath".
Whatever happened to "Except ye be converted, and BECOME AS LITTLE CHILDREN, ye shall not enter into the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 18:3 ). And. "Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" (Mark 10:13-14).
How are children who die, say at the age of four, covered? Are they doomed to God's wrath?
and build a doctrine on that . It was one man speaking of one child.
Never said it was 'doctrine." One "man " speaking...It's the word of God, and the NT tells us that the OT was given as examples of how God works.
This was a statement of faith in God, not the innocence of infants
I agree.
Becky do you really believe a 19 year old does not know right from wrong or can not sin? Do you believe the 8 year old that accepts Christ as his Savior can not be really saved because he has not reached the age of reason? If you are going to be consistent that would have to be your position
I believe 8 year olds can truely be saved. Yes, I believe 19 year old know right from wrong. That is not was saves us tho. Knowing right from wrong.
I believe infants are sinners, the bible says so. But that is not what sends us to hell. Being a sinner. Being good or righteous on our own is not what gets us to heaven either.
Becky
This is to ALL.
I think I can clear up all this confusion.
I've studied on this subject intensely for several years and there is one question I have for those who believe in an age of accountability.
The question is barbaric to say the least, but essential to the debate, though I would never do such a thing because I don't believe in an age of accountability.
The question:
If you truly in your heart of hearts believe in an age of accoutability, and that a child will without a doubt go to heaven if they die before they reach that age, why would you let any child reach that age?
Before you proceed with any more responses please consider your answer with the cause and affect that may lie ahead.
I know the first answers many will give such as well, the commandments say thou shalt not kill and that that could condemn you to hell, and to that I would say, the scriptures say that the greatest thing one can do is to give his own life for another.
There are many people who are barbarically killing little children and saying that the reason they did it was because they knew they would go to heaven and they didn't want them to have to grow up in this terrible world.
I say that the eople who started this age of accountability garbage and those who continue to spread it are much to blame for the deaths of these little ones.
I'll pray that you all will give up your preconceived notions of such an age of accountability and come to the knowledge of scriptural truth as in Mark 10:15 "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein."
With this verse I think the Lord is saying come to me as with the mind of a child, eager to learn without years of traditions and lies that have filled up your heads.
If an infant has committed no actual sin, and if judgment is based on actual sin (per McArthur, "Scripture teaches that all condemned sinners earned their eternal punishment by their sins."), then why the need introduce the concept of election?
I don't know. I was rather puzzled by that point as well.
Re. 30.
This Baptist does not believe in an age of accountability. Make sure not to use too broad of a brush.
As usual, you make a bigoted statement with nothing to back it up. And, as usual, you are wrong.
I would have to answer your question with two questions.
As quickly as your response was, have you considered the question I posted with depth and What do you think happened to these little children that the prophet Elisha cursed?
2 Kings 2:22-24
22. So the waters were healed unto this day, according to the saying of Elisha which he spake.
23. And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
Of course I believe in hell, but I have a godly perspective on children as Jesus was very clear how innocent they were.
I believe God gives man many more chances than he deserves, that's why I know he is LOVE, GRACE, MERCY, COMPASSION more often than Wrath, Anger or Punishment. If you spend time with the Holy Spirit you get to know God's character.
The statement that man is in the image and likeness of God still applies. That means they can think, make decisions and choose and apply moral values amongst others. In addition to ultimately being God's creation, Seth is the creation of Adam and Eve. Adam and Eve could only create the body, but not the soul. That was and remains God's to do.
"Adam was not without sin, by him sin entered the world. His children are born in his image"
Seth has the same capacity as Adam and Eve. The fact that Adam made a certain choice is why Seth and everyone else is bound to this world for some limited time.
Gen 3:22-24
"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever." So the LORD God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken. After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [5] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Before Adam's sin man only had capacity, w/o knowledge. After Adam chose to seek that knowledge, man was placed in this world. The cherubim with the flaming sword is the physics of this world. Man will never be able to create the eternal soul that is his eternal being, no matter how much and how hard he toils. Man had already eaten from the tree of life, so it was never to be gained by his hands that he should live forever, but only by God's hand.
God knew before Adam was, that by creating him in the image and likeness of God, man would make choices. Adam, being the first man, made the first choice. All men were to live in this world for a time and toil as was given. That was to be, because man now knowing good and evil, was to be given the choice of out of their own Free will, to choose, or reject the Holy Spirit. That is the fundamental consequence and nature of the story of the fall. Nothing changed about the fundamental nature of man by Adam's first sin, nor was Adam's progeny responsible for his sin. Each is responsible for their own sins.
"Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Jer 17:10
"I the Lord search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to what his deeds deserve."
Here in God's own words is what he says about that:
Matt 12:30-32 "He who is not with me is against me, and he who does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
The Father placed the salvation of man in Jesus's hands. Just as He can know what is in a man's heart, so to can other men know themselves, otherwise He would have never came to teach those that have the knowledge of good and evil. He said in Matt 12:33-37
"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit. You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. The good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and the evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him. But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."
It is clear that man is responsible for his own destiny. The grace of God consists of His gift of life, visitation by the Holy Spirit and His forgiveness. As can be plainly seen though, rejection of the Holy Spirit, or the choice to fundamentally do evil will not be forgiven. You can see from this passage that God knows that making something inherntly good will always result in good and making a tree bad, will always result in evil. That is one of the reasons man was made in His image, with the capacity to choose, but not with the inclination to choose either way. When God said, "that the Father draw them," it is not that the Father instills some inherent propensity to good, it is that the individual finds and chooses that which is good, over evil.
" how do you believe men are saved? Is it by worthy or because they deserve it or is it by Gods mercy?"
That is given above and in addition God knew all that before He created man. His intent from the beginning was that all should have eternal life. The choice was given to men, whether they would spend it with Him, or with those that war with Him in Heaven. Man, because of "the fall", must choose to war with God, or join Him.
Jesus was made a sin offering to God. Jesus paid the price that was once paid with the blood of bulls and goats. That only covered you for a year, but Jesus blood covers you as long as you continue in the faith.
Jesus said to repent, or change your mind, and believe the Gospel. The Gospel is defined in 2 Corinthians 15 as the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus. So I would say what Jesus said, change your mind and believe that Jesus died on the cross, was buried, went to hell as our substitute, and was raised again the third day. You have to have faith in that in order for the power of God to work in your life. Teach your child that and they will have heaven on earth and will walk in the power of God.
The whole "age of accountability" is bogus anyway. God told Jeremiah he would confound him before the nations if did not speak the words God told him to speak and he was a child. Also know this that God judges by the heart, and we don't know our own hearts and whats in it let alone our kids.
If you believe the Gospel you can sanctify your kids anyway.
You sure don't get english do you. MY faith is God's faith and their own faith, is their faith in God....sheesh
That sentence makes no sense at all. We are all called to be children of God, and God does deal with each of us. There is a time of innocence. There is a time of leaving childhood and going on to be an adult..and THERE IS A TIME that God will not strive with man any longer.
There are people saved at all ages, so don't tell me God has only one time in your life to check and see if you want to go to heaven and accept him, that's not scriptural.
The Bible says He would that all men be saved.
I will list a few scriptures referencing the salvation (coming unto Jesus) or seeking of the Lord at early age, but I am not going through the Bible and count them for you. Here are several:
Matt 19:14, Mark 9:36,37; Mark 9:48, Prov 8:17, 32; 1 John 2:12,13
What an odd question. The presuppositions behind it are many. But let's cut to the chase.
We are put on earth to serve God. Not to play God. To think that there is some magic loophole that will "trick" God into letting everyone into heaven, provided we slaughter them young, is to misunderstand God. He's not a parlor trick.
Our mission here is not to "trick" God into sending souls to Heaven. The ends do not justify the means. We can not do evil for good intentions.
SD
I don't believe that.
Matt 12:33
"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit."
Free will means there is no inherent good, or evil. It means folks are Free to make their own decisions regarding values and the choices that arise from them. See#250.
Think about how we give certain responsibilities to children who are older, and how we base that on their age and maturity. WE are created in God's image, don't you see that in the Bible that he expects more from those more mature. It isn't an exact age but it does begin at puberty, and as knowledge increases so does accountability.
I covered that in #250.
It is the same as in Jer17:10, or Matt 12. What Noah did pleased the Lord. The Lord did not change Noah to please Himself.
Yes there is, otherwise Jesus would not have had to come and die on the cross, we could have went to heaven because we were good or evil. Hogwash...we are all born into sin and must accept Jesus, "he is the way the truth and the life and no man comes to father but by him". At some point we are held accountable for our actions by God.
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