[ultima ratio]

You've seen no such thing. Sorry, but the arguments are all on our side. Not only is the Novus Ordo a failure--but so is the exaggerated ecumenism of this Pope. Vatican II has born no fruit. None whatsoever. That is simply a fact.

[GirlShortstop]

You've seen no such thing.

LOL u.r., if there ever was a need for you to post something to demonstrate that you're outta touch... now you're telling *me* what I've seen, read, understood, and experienced!  Your pamphlets and excommunicated author's writitng(s) do not stand up to the Church's vast documentary support, traditions, and history of TRUTH.... the things that you and your schism FRiends ('our side' as you say), malcontents, frustrated wannabe theologians, not to mention outsiders, are he##bent on twisting, excerpting and flat out lying about to meet their own ends.  If Jack Chick, Frances Kissling, etc., sleep at night, I guess you and your 'side' can too.