Posted on 07/31/2004 3:18:06 PM PDT by Patrick Madrid
1. How do you know the Pope "has the confidence of the Holy Spirit? Such an assumption is ridiculous. Pope Alexander kept a mistress. Did he also have a pipeline to the Holy Spirit--or does it only work for popes who pray with animists? There is not a shred of evidence for this kind of pope-worshiping nonsense you prattle--nor is there any traditional Catholic teaching that asserts a pope may not be as bad and unjust as the rest of us. You need to understand this better and stop talking nonsense.
2. It is debatable whether any pope has the authority to demand the acceptance of the Novus Ordo. Many theologians dispute it, Msgr. Klaus Gamber first of all--and his work, remember, had been endorsed by Ratzinger and remains the foremost critique of the Novus Ordo:
"Since there is no document that specifically assigns to the Apostolic See the authority to change, let alone to abolish the traditional liturgical rite; and since, furthermore, it can be shown that not a single predecessor of Pope Paul VI has ever introduced major changes to the Roman liturgy, the assertion that the Holy See has the authority to change the liturgical rite would appear to be debatable to say the least." (The Reform of the Roman Liturgy, p. 39)
3. Once again, ad nauseam--the Pope can say anything he damn well pleases. He can excommunicate Mother Teresa and beatify Cardinal Mahoney if he wants. So what? This would not make what he did true in such cases. It might make some legal sense to people like you--but if what he said was not actually based on facts, on reality and truth, what he does and says would be mere nullities. Papal whims are not protected from error by the Holy Spirit.
Be careful. The Pope was blond himself in earlier days.
Following your faulty logic, of course, Gregory would not have legitimately codified the Rite around the year 600, and Quo Primum was some sort of artificial construct based on legerdemain, trickery, and deceit.
Yup.
How can something that's a disaster be perfect? Your standards must be pretty low.
Did you miss the part where He said "I am the Way,the Truth and the Light,no one can get to the Father,except through me"?
Codifying rites does not mean creating them out of whole cloth--by a committee of humanists no less. Codification simply makes more permanent what had already evolved up to that time--under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
"Oh, I don't know. I vaguely recall some others being 'cranky' on these threads. So much so that some of them were tossed from FR."
I don't think I'm allowed to disagree with you as to the reason that they were tossed.
I remember learning in a catechism class (pre-council)that purgatory likely was experienced in either or,and sometimes both,the temporal and supernatural worlds. The instructor said that a Just God would not reward two people,one who always successfully resisted temptation and one who fell often but repented,confessed and was forgiven,in the same manner. Cleansing or purging is/was required for the many sins committed,even though forgiven,to assure perfect justice was effected.
I recall hearing that many people who had suffered so very much in WWII probably had served their purgatory and upon death went to God. I always found that comforting.
Perhaps,if you and I go directly to heaven,we will be grateful for Weakland and O'Brien's reigns.
"a Just God would not reward two people,one who always successfully resisted temptation and one who fell often but repented,confessed and was forgiven,in the same manner. Cleansing or purging is/was required for the many sins committed,even though forgiven,to assure perfect justice was effected."
I agree with the conclusion, but I don't think it's a matter of God rewarding or punishing. I think spiritual dynamics are reflected in the laws of thermodynamics--that is, sin has consequences in the spiritual realm much like physical actions have consequences in the physical realm.
Just as every action has an equal and opposite reaction, every sin has spiritual consequences that have to be worked out. JMO.
I thought you were sincere and responded the way I did. Let me reword it. We are following Christ and His Spouse (Catholic Church) to heaven,or,in other words,back to the Father.
Or,we are following Peter,who is following Christ and His Spouse. His Spouse is the Church that He established as a visible presence to remain in His stead until until He returns or we reach the Father before He returns. He remains with the visible Church by virtue of the Holy Spirit,the Spirit of Truth which He promised to Peter and the eleven or twelve until the consumation of the world.
So that's where we are unless you think we are someplace else.
Yeah,that sounds right but I am on a Justice and Mercy bent right now. I got on it while trying to explain to a young priest that all this Merciful God homilizing was just fine except nobody understood the concept of Justice. I went on to say that unless we understood justice,mercy was just goo or license to do anything. If all is forgiven then essentially all is permitted. In all honesty,his homilies are getting much more Catholic and thus more helpful.
Just as every action has an equal an opposite reaction,every sin has spiritual consequences that must be worked out.
Thanks for a very concise,clear description that should help me in discussions with people of a more secular bent.
I think Waekland GOT retired by the Pope! (But I could be mistaken.)
"Justice and Mercy"
PORTIA
The quality of mercy is not strain'd,
It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven
Upon the place beneath: it is twice blest;
It blesseth him that gives and him that takes:
'Tis mightiest in the mightiest: it becomes
The throned monarch better than his crown;
His sceptre shows the force of temporal power,
The attribute to awe and majesty,
Wherein doth sit the dread and fear of kings;
But mercy is above this sceptred sway;
It is enthroned in the hearts of kings,
It is an attribute to God himself;
And earthly power doth then show likest God's
When mercy seasons justice. Therefore, Jew,
Though justice be thy plea, consider this,
That, in the course of justice, none of us
Should see salvation: we do pray for mercy;
And that same prayer doth teach us all to render
The deeds of mercy. I have spoke thus much
To mitigate the justice of thy plea;
Which if thou follow, this strict court of Venice
Must needs give sentence 'gainst the merchant there.
That Shakespeare was such a Catholic!!!Thanks.
You are allowed to disagree, of course. You just can't do it on the FR board.
I'm still puzzled over stevej and for that matter, canticle. Evidently I'm missing a sensitivity gene.
W's predecessor was Abp. William Cousins, who came to us as a "gift" from Chicago.
His modus operandi was one of non-exertion: show up at the office around 10A, lunch begins at 11A, siesta ends at 2P, close the office around 3:30P.
He was responsible for appointing the WRONG MEN to run the Seminary, and for a semi-fraudulent money transfer to certain "civil rights" organizations in town. He also revved up the Marriage Tribunal to rival the 'annulment machine' of the Green Bay Diocese, long regarded as the single most liberal tribunal in the USA.
Fortunately, the Diocese was mostly run by his Auxiliary, a good guy.
We also know that Original Sin had physical consequences and one could argue that Aquinas' "dulling of the mind" could be physical in addition to purely intellectual.
Of course, it would be a challenge to prove that...
"Evidently I'm missing a sensitivity gene."
Maybe we're related.
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