"More Catholic Than the Pope" — New Book Responds to Arguments Raised by Extreme Traditionalists

Envoy Encore Weblog ^ | 07-30-04 | Patrick Madrid

[Salvation]

Please speak the truth.

You said: "loyal to the doctrine of the Catholic Church sometime."

Dn't you mean "loyal to the [pre Vatican I] doctrine of of the Catholic Church sometime."

Sorry to disappoint you, but the Church is a living instrument -- always changing. In fact, it will be forever changing. We can't go back to that era -- we are living in the year 2004!

[pascendi]

"I'm sure Madrid will back off when the likes of Ferrara, and Drolesky, and Gumaraes, and Michael Matt back off their integrist trashing of the Novus Ordo and the Church."

Can't wait for it to come out now, and watch it get roundly refuted. I'm feeling better about this already.

"Those who support the Pope, the Novus Ordo according to the GIRM, and Vatican II are subjected to endless screeds from angry integrists, hurling every epithet they can think of at the post-Conciliar Church.

As long as what they say is true and defends Holy Mother Church, good for them.

"When someone challenges them, the traddies howl like stuck pigs and scream "unfair.""

"Unfair"? No, they just scream Modernism and stuff. Because it's true.

"If Madrid wanted to really do God's work, he'd post a page a day from his book on this forum for the next nine months."

Job security. You couldn't lose on that count.

"You are being disingenuous by screaming "divisiveness" when that's what the trads on this forum have been about for the last three years!"

Madrid and Vere's book is divisive. It's not even out yet, and it's already working.

"No pity party for you."

Of course not. Bring it on.

[saradippity]

I have seen no ultranmontane notion of papal power among the liberals. What I see them doing is swooping down on one thing,taking it out of context and then falling back on "the Pope,said it must be done". The few times we ever heard there was a Pope in the last 30 years was when 1)the Pope said priests should have time to rest and relax,2)when the Pope approved of altar girls,and there was one other thing but I can't remember what it was.

Our ex and his marxist and/or homosexual priests and the lay gaggle of geese that follow man not Jesus Christ were experts at expanding the loopholes their buddies made for them at Vat II. The fact that the radical element on the one end of the spectrum prefer to disparage and criticize those who are trying to save the Church rather than deal with the real enemy is a real tragedy. In the long run this will redound to destroy what they claim to love.

[Salvation]

**If Madrid wanted to really do God's work, he'd post a page a day from his book on this forum for the next nine months.**

That wouldn't be a bad idea! It would be some learning for all of us.

[pascendi]

"You said: "loyal to the doctrine of the Catholic Church sometime." Don't you mean "loyal to the [pre Vatican I] doctrine of of the Catholic Church sometime." Sorry to disappoint you, but the Church is a living instrument -- always changing."

Hey, check this out. Salvation actually thinks that doctrines can change.

[pascendi]

"Please speak the truth."

It would be a heck of a lot easier if the truth didn't quit changing every time I turn around.

[Salvation]

Interpret it wrongly if you wish. You know that's not what I meant.

May the Lord grant all of us His forgiveness. That's what counts, after all, isn't it?

[pascendi]

**If Madrid wanted to really do God's work, he'd post a page a day from his book on this forum for the next nine months.**

That wouldn't be a bad idea! It would be some learning for all of us.

Why not. He's your lay magisterium.

[pascendi]

"Interpret it wrongly if you wish. You know that's not what I meant."

Well if I did that, I am truly sorry. Explain to me what you mean though, because it just sounds like modernism cloaked in development of doctrine.

"May the Lord grant all of us His forgiveness. That's what counts, after all, isn't it?"

We have confessionals. There's no lines, so apparently, not many people want His forgiveness. Does this tell you anything?

[sinkspur]

Madrid and Vere's book is divisive. It's not even out yet, and it's already working.

It's not directed at you. You're not SSPX, are you?

He's targeting Lefebvrites and sedes. They are clearly OUTSIDE the Church, yet act as if they're inside.

I will buy his work, and quote it frequently.

[Arguss]

"More Catholic Than the Pope" — New Book Responds to Arguments Raised by Extreme Traditionalists

After reading your book title, I didn't bother to read your commentary. I guess I have read more than my share of the same drivel. The title alone is blatant commercialism, designed to appeal to the majority of un-churched Catholics, who wouldn't know a Sacrament from a sacramental.

For instance, what would be the definition of an extreme traditionalist, as opposed to an ordinary traditionalist, and how would one, as compared to the other, stack up with the Catholicity of the Pope?

Would a fair statement be that an extreme traditionalist believes every doctrine and dogma promulgated by the Church prior to 1962 to be sacrosanct, whereas the Pope does not?

Has it ever occured to you, or any of the others throwing rocks, that traditionalists have been given the Grace to do exactly what they are doing, and may be the remnant promised in Scripture?

There is nothing wrong with making a buck, but at the expense of your Church? "What does it profit a man...."

[sinkspur]

For instance, what would be the definition of an extreme traditionalist, as opposed to an ordinary traditionalist, and how would one, as compared to the other, stack up with the Catholicity of the Pope?

Ordinary traditionalists attend the Indult, and remain within the fold of Catholicism. Madrid's book is directed at the schismatic SSPXers and the sedevacantists, members of whom are outside the bonds of unity with the Pope.

[GratianGasparri]

For all those who would like a sample... I hope I am not abusing Madrid or Vere's charity, but I just happen to be going over an advanced review copy of the manuscript right now. Here's the start of the chapter I'm currently reviewing...

Are all traditionalists schismatic? The answer is no. In fact, one of the present authors (Pete Vere) continues to frequent the old Latin liturgy on a regular basis and he remains firmly committed to its preservation. There are indeed several traditionalist apostolates operating in full communion with Rome. To find out if any such legitimate traditionalist alternatives operate in one’s diocese, one need only contact the local chancery office. Below are short descriptions of five of the more popular traditionalist alternatives recognized by the Church.

The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter

The Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter (FSSP), often referred to within traditionalist circles simply as “the Fraternity,” began with several priests and seminarians who left the SSPX in 1988 because they could not in good conscience go along with Archbishop Lefebvre’s schismatic consecration of bishops. Pope John Paul II brought together a group of these men who wished to continue celebrating the sacraments according to the traditionalist liturgy while remaining in full communion with the Church and founded the FSSP as a society of apostolic life. Its purpose is to minister the sacraments according to the liturgical books in use in 1962. Additionally, the FSSP serves as a point of reception for former SSPX clergy seeking to reconcile with the Church.

From its initial founding of under a dozen priests and seminarians, the FSSP now boasts over a hundred priests, almost as many seminarians, apostolates on every continent, and several schools – including two international seminaries. The FSSP’s current Superior General is Fr. Arnaud Devillers – a French priest originally ordained by Archbishop Lefebvre for the SSPX. Fr. Devillers reconciled with the Church about a year after Lefebvre’s schismatic consecration of bishops. Fr. Devillers is a formidable administrator as well as a keen visionary within the FSSP. During his tenure as District Superior for the FSSP in America, he oversaw the FSSP’s expansion into Canada and Australia, as well as the founding and initial construction of the FSSP’s English-speaking seminary. As Superior General of the FSSP, Father has brought his keen sense of ecclesiology tothe job – leading traditionalists who wish to remain faithful to Rome into the Church’s mainstream, while dispelling numerous negative misconceptions about traditionalists formerly held by many within the Church hierarchy.

[sinkspur]

Has it ever occured to you, or any of the others throwing rocks, that traditionalists have been given the Grace to do exactly what they are doing, and may be the remnant promised in Scripture?

Extreme trads, such as SSPXers and sedes, occupy the same role vis-a-vis the Church as the Libertarian and Constitution Party members occupy relative to the Republican Party.

Lots of noise, but they have no effect and no influence because they are renegades.

[pascendi]

"It's not directed at you. You're not SSPX, are you?"

No, I'm not SSPX. But use the term right. If I was SSPX, I would belong to the order. People regularly call people SSPX because they assist at Masses provide by the SSPX, which isn't naming things precisely.

But it is most certainly directed against me and mine, yes.

"He's targeting Lefebvrites and sedes. They are clearly OUTSIDE the Church, yet act as if they're inside."

Lefebvrists? Also also a sloppy use of terms. No, Ecclesia Dei clearly bases it's admonitions against schism clearly on the rejection of the papacy, something the SSPX attenders don't do, perhaps individuals excepted. But the so-called Lefebvrists could do what Madrid and Vere can't: provide decent arguments to convince the sedes to stay aboard the Barque of Peter.

"I will buy his work, and quote it frequently."

Go for it. Whatever is in the book that may be misguided will receive a decent refutation, I'm sure.

[sinkspur]

Thanks for that excerpt. There is not a Catholic on this board who does not welcome the efforts of the FSSP and the promoters of the Indult. They are working hard to maintain unity of worship within the Tridentine Liturgy and unity with the Holy Father.

Interestingly, the Indult seems to be more widely available in dioceses with "liberal" bishops, such as Los Angeles, Richmond (under Sullivan) and San Antonio. Bruskewitz, in Lincoln, has a couple of FSSP parishes, but does not allow the Indult.

[sitetest]

Dear GratianGasparri,

Great post.

Stick around. Maybe there is hope for the "Catholic" Caucus recovering its Catholicity.


sitetest

[sinkspur]

But the so-called Lefebvrists could do what Madrid and Vere can't: provide decent arguments to convince the sedes to stay aboard the Barque of Peter.

Why don't they? They seem to high-five them for their "courage."

[american colleen]

Then tell Madrid and Vere to quit digging in the dirt and looking to make money off a crisis in the Church with another book which aims at telling everyone about a very small handful of people who that they think they're Holier Than the Pope.

Last I checked we are living in a free country and no one is prohibited from writing what they please - just as no one is forced to buy their wares.

And I'd take you a bit more seriously when you say something like 'Then tell Madrid and Vere to quit digging in the dirt and looking to make money off a crisis in the Church..' if you ascribed like motives to writers like Thomas A. Droleskey or Atila Sinke Guimarães or Marian T. Horvat or Michael J. Matt or John Vennari - but we can't do that, right? Because we cannot know the state of their souls and minds or what motivates them.

[M007]

We are attending valid Masses of the real, not the false, Catholic Church. Our kids are getting catechized with the real, not the false, doctrines of the Catholic Church. It is the Novus Ordo that has been infiltrated by apostates and should be avoided at all costs. It is also the Novus Ordo which protestantizes the faith

I think that if the SSPX is PROTESTING the Pope and the Magisterium then it a PROTESTANT organization. They are protesting from the right.

I remember when Mike Matt (Remnant) said "he accused the Pope to his face." That reminds me of Luther nailing his protestations on the Church door.

The funny thing about Mike Matt is that he says he goes to an indult Mass. That is fine except he should stop rabble-rousing everybody else against the Church. He is a big trouble maker.