Posted on 07/20/2004 11:22:48 AM PDT by DAVEY CROCKETT
I agree
guess the big reason i tend to go slow is that i can only keep up with the thread.....that is, if we are applying the symbols & time prophesies correctly....APPLYING them correctly...takes alot of effort...and IF i stay "with it" - with care & due diligence, i believe that the knowledge that god has put there for all of us to understand will be its own reward.
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I agree:) feed me some information as to where you are at!
ive come to realize that "staying with it" (the study) will at times evolve into a 'line-by-line' analysis, and hope that interest doesnt wane. god's true pearl of truth is there if we seek diligently. how wonderful he is!
then, there is the fast approaching issue of how to apply the various time prophesies. consider genesis 7 & 8 to establish the measuring stick for a year. a biblical year....see 7:11 (when the flood came), 8:4 (when it subsided), & 7:24 (how long - in days - it lasted). lets do the math. how long is a biblical month? when i read it, it seems to be telling me how long, in days, a month....therefore a year actually is considered by "biblical measure". see what ya think.....LUB
Sounds good wil get to work!SMILES
Also just food for thought. The 4 horsemen of Revelation are riding white, red, black and pale(green) colored horses. those are the 4 colors of several Islamic countries among them Irag, Jordan, Syria and the PLO flag.
I still think the little horn and 3 horns stuff has to do ALSO or at least with end time stuff regardless of the historical applications. Whether there's a direct 1:1 correlation with people groups, I don't know.
I suppose there might be a coorelation with the type of peoples or the behavior of those historical people groups, as well. Certainly going with the 1:1 correlations with the historical groups would be a good place to start in all probability.
Line by line is fine with me.
Not an issue of interest waning--just multitasking with varying priorities day to day. Doesn't matter to me if it bumps along at it's own pace.
I don't have a lot of biases about time measurements. Probably trying both Biblical and modern would be instructive.
THANKS FOR ALL YOUR WORK!
Good deal will work on tomorrow. LUB
no doubt, the indirect correlations are useful, and thats understated! what is becoming very interesting to me is the more direct, 1:1 relationships that im pretty sure god wants us to be aware of. the better to prepare for 'not being deceived'. the specific identities of various 'players' - i believe he wants us to know.
i think that many people drop out, or shy away, or become inundated & confused when reading all this stuff in daniel & revelation....i know i have!!!! i pray his spirit keeps my mind 'on task' to better understand his wonderful message! now its back to the 'king of the north', the 'king of the south' - repeat! LUB
AMEN! AMEN! AMEN!
Not at all sure I want to bother about Obama.
He strikes me as a strident, passionate, articulate etc. sort of person around whom the puppet masters and certainly the DIMRATS could predictably craft a very attractive leader along the lines of Kennedy.
I think he's mostly sincere but I think his sincerity is built on sand. He will sound like he's so solid etc. etc. etc. but when the bottom line is reached, he'll end up supporting globalism and all the other commie, socialist hogwash and horse biscuits we've come to expect from that side of reality.
But he'll package it so slickly; so articulately; so passionately; so smoothly that people will swoon and praise him to high heaven and his star will rise dramatically, I suspect. For him, it will be somewhat real, I suspect and somewhat sincere. But he is either naive about the puppet masters playing him for a fool or he's a real complicit fool going along for the ride and hoping to enjoy the power and perks that go with it.
I think, as bright as he is, he's probably 40 naive and 60 planning to enjoy the power and perks and rationalizing it that it's the only way he can help the 'little people.' But as ever, the little people will be quickly lost and stepped on to lift him higher.
Whether intentionally or just the way they do things in that side of reality and in tooo many other sides of reality, too.
am in accord, also, with the idea of "in the greater sense" - or - "for all practical purposes" re: the identity of the 3 horns. now, humbly asking (because, far be it from me to get ahead!) if you got around to that little math problem.....LUB
Don't look to me about a math problem! My check book is challenge enough. And the computer's always handled statistics for me!
Reading and learning hereon. Sorry not much to contribute.
When I have Fox on this week, I keep the sound off--unless some rare issue of interest comes up. Not much so this week!
The DIMRATS pontificating either leaves me wanting to heave or pray for Orkin or some such. So I just leave it off. Their idiocy is more . . . idiotic as just text on the screen when I glance at it.
quix, your "contributions" are valuable, if for nothing else, maintaining civility on the thread, and helping to keep our spirits warm toward one another as we study our way toward a truer understanding of these crucial prophesies in daniel. ditto dc!
in keeping with your original purpose and exhortation(s), i didnt want to tell you or anyone 'what it means'....rather, i thought if we did it together, we would find strength - a "more sureness" and confidence in the word of god, so that we could at least minimize speculation, the going off on tangents, and cut down on the time sorting through 'false pearls'. i keep thinking, HE wants us to READ and UNDERSTAND. please, none of you, reading and studying with honest and open hearts, think that your contributions are of little worth. we need each other! there's no better 'tide' for raising 'all boats' than our honest, prayerful, and thankful work here....together!
maybe you could check my math, then. ok? after all, i always thought that 2 "A's" and 2 "B's" was "ABBA"! (sorry, old swedish joke)....flood begins 17th day of 2nd month; genesis 7:11. flood ends (ark rested on ararat) the 17th day of the seventh month.... TOTAL? = 5 months. how many days? genesis 7:24; 150 days.
because time is so prominently featured in particularly daniel's visions, i think understanding this is of great importance....so, how many days are in a month? 150 divided by 5 = 30! (remember, it's biblical days, biblical months, biblical years. meaning: for the purposes of prophecy.....understanding prophecy....calculating prophetic time. - again referring to ezekiel 4:6 and numbers 14:34, or a "day" of prophetic time = 1 "year" of biblical time).
i think that a year - in the bible - comprises 12 months of 30 day months, 360 days. ok with you? LUB
Am humbled by your kind words. Thanks tons.
Dental pain meds have me drowsy but in that state, and with my flawed math skills--seems to be accurate enough for me!
Will try and check out later.
THX MUCH.
What happens about/with the 5+ extra days in the ?siderial? or orbital year???
Otherwise, seems to make enough sense to me. Will try to get to the thread this afternoon.
THX.
oh! and yes, that was a great question....what i've come to expect, and it encourages me in this study.....that brain cells are actually being recruited!
i also ran across another way to calculate the months & years....not that the plain example from genesis wasnt enough, but it helps to see confirmation, for a "more sure" understanding....it takes somewhat more work, connecting the dots, etc....but i think a sequential analysis of jewish months & festivals bears it out as well. i just havent done it that way....LUB
FYI this is a little different....
Germanic Peoples Which Took Over the Roman Empire
On the left you will find the name of the people group, the year they acquired dominion, and the territory they occupied. Additional comments are on the right. You will notice that we discuss more than ten groups. The first ten are the ones generally considered to be the ten referred to in the prophecy. The others are discussed also for your consideration and evaluation.
Alemanni
c. 260
Germany The Alemanni were originally composed of fragments of several Germanic peoples, and they remained a loosely knit confederation of tribes. Although several tribes put their military forces under the joint command of two leaders for the duration of a campaign, the different peoples generally found it difficult to combine, and they had nothing that could be called a central government. The Romans were displaced from the Agri Decumates by the Alemanni c. 260. (The Agri Decumates is a name given by the ancient Roman historian Tacitus to the Black Forest and adjoining areas of southwestern Germany between the Rhine, Danube, and Main Rivers.) The Alemanni occupied that region, and late in the 5th century they expanded into Alsace and northern Switzerland, thus making those regions German speaking. In 496 they were conquered by Clovis and incorporated into his Frankish dominions. The people continued to exist, yet under Merovingian rule. Originally pagan, they were converted to Christianity by Columbanus in the early 7th century. As that was the Celtic, and not the Catholic, form of Christianity, they were referred to as "Arians" by the Catholics. Between the years 718 and 732, by the efforts of Boniface, a Catholic monk from England, the Alemanni were brought under papal control.
Suevi
411
NW Spain Moved west across Gaul around the year 406. Considered to be Arian. Became Catholic around the year 555 (Some sources say 575). Absorbed into the Visigoth kingdom about 585.
Visigoths
415
Spain Arian. Entered Roman territory around 395. Sacked Rome in 410. Established a large kingdom in Spain and Gaul in 415. Driven from Gaul in 508. Became Catholic in 587. In 621 they gained possession of the entire Spanish peninsula. Overthrown by the Moslems in 711.
Vandals
429
N. Africa Arian. Entered Roman territory in 409, settling in Spain. Crossed into Africa in 429. Took Carthage in 439. Captured and sacked Rome in 455. Destroyed by Justinian's general, Belisarius, in 534.
Franks
429
France First entered Roman territory in 358. In 486 Clovis destroyed the last vestige of Roman power in Gaul. They were pagan, but Clovis was converted to Catholicism in 496, the first of the barbarians to do so. Clovis established a powerful kingdom by conquering several other German kingdoms. In 561 the kingdom was divided into four parts, three of which, after 567, were off-and-on-again separately ruled: Neustria, Austrasia, and Burgundy.
Burgundians
443
Burgundy First appeared in Roman territory in 412. Arian. It appears that the king converted to Catholicism about the year 520. The kingdom fell to the Franks in 532 or 534. Now a part of France.
Angles, Saxons, Jutes
c. 450
Britain These groups were pagan until Catholicism, which, introduced in 597, was established by the Synod of Whitby in 664. The Anglo-Saxon kingdom was conquered by the Normans in 1066.
Heruli
476
Rome The Heruli were German auxiliary troops in Rome who mutinied on August 23, 476, bringing to an end the Western Roman imperial line. Was it really a Herulian kingdom, or simply a Herulian king who played an important role in Western civilization? As a people group they hold no major significance; but their leader, Odoacer, stands out distinctly in history. They were Arian. When Odoacer was killed by Theodoric in 493, we hear no more about the Heruli.
Ostrogoths
493
Rome Arrived in 456. Came to power in Rome in 493 when Theodoric killed Odoacer. Arian. Belisarius expelled them from Rome in 538. Their kingdom came to an end in 553.
Lombards
568
Italy A Suevian group who moved into Italy in 568. Arian. The changeover to Catholicism took place between 588 and 662. They lasted as a kingdom until 774.
Frisians
Native
A portion of the Netherlands Sources conflict with each other as to whether their territory was ever under Roman jurisdiction. If it was, the Romans, not the Frisians, were the invaders. This is not an example of a barbarian group migrating into Roman territory. It is also questioned whether or not they ever formed a self-contained political, cultural, or ethnic unit which might be called a "kingdom." Descendants of this people group still exist there today. The Frisians were pagan until forced to become Catholic in 750.
Thuringians
By A.D. 500
Germany They first appeared sometime after c. 350. They were conquered by the Huns near the middle of the 5th century. But by the beginning of the 6th century the Thuringians had an extensive kingdom from the Elbe to the Danube, outside the territory proper of the old Roman Empire. In 531 they were attacked by the Franks and the Saxons. The northern part of their kingdom was taken by the Saxons, and the southern part became Frankish territory. If occupying territory within the boundaries of the old Roman Empire is a qualification for being one of the ten horns, the Thuringians probably would not qualify. Some maps of the Roman Empire, however, do include what might have been the southern portion of Thuringia.
Bavarians
639
Bavaria-Austria Appear to have come on the scene too late to be one of the orginal ten horns. Possibly Catholic by the time they achieved independence. Incorporated into Charlemagne's dominions in 788.
Noteworthy Names:
Alaric, king of the Visigoths (395-410)
Clovis, king of the Franks (481-511)
Genseric, king of the Vandals (428-477)
Odoacer, king of the Heruli (476-493)
Theodoric, king of the Ostrogoths (493-526)
http://patmospapers.com/daniel/horns.htm
awesome work!
the little horn, before whom 3 horns fell, is from what i seem to see, CONTEMPORARY to the events....that is to say, not in our future, but has already happened in history. arising from the ashes, so to speak, of the roman (10) divisions.
it seems that it was the effect of "the arian heresy" that spurred the events which caused the 3 (arian kingdoms) to fall....the battle for dominance of doctrine between arianism (which the heruli, ostrogoths, and vandals embraced)& the early rcc. seen in the history of the eventual ascendance to power of the rcc (which "won" the struggle for dominance). the history of constantine, justinian's (& belisarius')victories, the conversion of clovis, and so many other historical events - as well as all the 'king of the north', 'king of the south' references - seem to very clearly describe (im sorry, but i promise to go line by line when i have more time!) the struggle- which lasted centuries, btw - for its eventual consolidation of power and doctrinal "supremacy". LUB
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