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To: gbcdoj; 8mmMauser; AAABEST; Polycarp IV; NYer; Salvation; cpforlife.org; Land of the Irish; ...

We are in a complete and utter state of emergency and you must be in never never land or burying your head in the sand. The Church supplies jurisdiction. Was Athanasius illigal and wrong because he went into other Bishops diocese when he was kicked out of his own and disobeyed the Pope? 80 percent of the bishops had apostatized and the Pope Liberious signed the semi Arian Creed and excommunicated Athansius see last section.

This is what Count Capponi of the Roman Rota said who had defended the Hawaii Five whom you would have probably said were excommunicated because they asked SSPX Bishop Williamson who did not have jurisdiction either to come and confirm their children. So what who cares about the apostate Bishops who have there jurisdiction! God will judge them- in the meantime Canon law and divine law say that we have the right to any Valid Rite in the Catholic Church. Trent declared it anathema to say otherwise. Take it up with Trent and Pius VI who said that although the Church has the right to change how the sacraments are dispensed it doesn’t have the right to create a New Rite newer than 200 years old. This is found in Trent Session 7 Canon 13 on the "Sacraments in General:""If anyone says that the received and approved rites customarily used in the Catholic Church for the solemn administration of the Sacraments can be changed into other new rites by any pastor in the Church whosoever, let him be anathema."

Canon 9. If anyone says that the rite of the Roman Church, according to which a part of the canon and the words of consecration are pronounced in a low tone, is to be condemned; or that the mass ought to be celebrated in the vernacular tongue only;[28] or that water ought not to be mixed with the wine that is to be offered in the chalice because it is contrary to the institution of Christ,[29] let him be anathema. (Trent Twenty-Second Session) Seems like most NO Masses fail on those two points alone- not to mention the hootenany dances and go hug a tree songs and the “I myself am the bread of Life.”


For current crisis This is what Count Capponi a canon lawyer in the Roman Rota said: “When asked why I believe the crisis we now face is worse than Arianism, I give these reasons: (a) The principle vehicle of the faith, the liturgy, was untouched by the Arian crisis; (b) whereas the Arian crisis was precipitated and sustained by the intervention of secular power, the post
Vatican II crisis comes from within the Church and is therefore more difficult to fight; (c) in the fourth century, Pope Liberius finally signed the excommunication of St. Athanasius under duress—in the twentieth century Pope Paul VI was admittedly taken in and hoodwinked by
his misguided optimism, but there was no duress; (d) the present crisis is not only one of faith but of morals as well. In addition, today not only one dogma, albeit a very important one, is denied as with Arianism, but all dogmas, be it even the existence of a personal God!
see www.ewtn.com/library/CANONLAW/CRIFAITH.HTM - 30k

There is some controversy as to whether Liberius did excommunicate Athanasius but in fact he did and wrongly so.Cardinal Newman said, in "Arians of the Fourth Century" in note 13 of Apendix V " A.D. 357-8. And Liberius. "The tragedy was not ended in the lapse of Hosius, but in the evil which befell Liberius, the Roman Pontiff, it became far more dreadful and mournful, considering that he was Bishop of so great a city, and of the whole Catholic Church, and that he had so bravely resisted Constantius two years previously. There is nothing, whether in the historians and holy fathers, or in his own letters, to prevent our coming to the conclusion, that Liberius communicated with the Arians, and confirmed the sentence passed by them against Athanasius; but he is not at all on that account to be called a heretic." Baron. Ann. 357, 38-45. Athanasius says: "Liberius, after he had been {449} in banishment for two years, gave way, and from fear of threatened death was induced to subscribe. Arian. Hist. § 41. St. Jerome says: "Liberius, tædio victus exilii, et in hæreticam pravitatem subscribens, Romam quasi victor intraverat." CChron. ed. Val. p. 797 " note said "9. A.D. 353. The Council of Arles. The Pope sent to it {448} several Bishops as legates. The Fathers of the Council, including the Pope's legate, Vincent, subscribed the condemnation of Athanasius. Paulinus, Bishop of Treves, was nearly the only one who stood up for the Nicene faith and for Athanasius. He was accordingly banished into Phrygia, where he died.
see http://www.newmanreader.org/works/arians/note5.html

It is time for people to get there heads out of the sand and see the writing on the wall. Yes a lot of “evil is befalling” the Church today to use Cardinal Newman’s words whom the liberals like to distort to say he would have liked all of this "democratic liberal" garbage going on in the Church.

Here is a few more Newman quotes for you.

"If either the Pope or the Queen (of England) demanded of me an absolute obedience, he or she would be transgressing the laws of human nature and human society. I give an absolute obedience to neither." Cardinal Newman, A Letter Addressed to His Grace, the Duke of Norfolk (This was the last book he personally wrote and published and certainly is the fruit of his mature thought.)

"Pope is not inspired; he has not an inherent gift of divine knowledge. When he speaks ex cathedra, he may say little or much, but he is simply protected from saying what is untrue. I know you will find flatterers and partisans such as those whom St. Francis de Sales calls the Pope lackeys, who say much more than this, but they may enjoy their own opinions, they cannot bind the faith of Catholics." Cardinal Newman, letter quoted by B. Ward in her biography.

"It is no sense doctrinally false that a Pope, as a private doctor, and much more bishops, when not teaching formally, may err, as we find they did err in the fourth century." said Cardinal Newman
www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20011221_A_Brief_Defense_of_Traditionalism.html - 74k from "A Brief Defence of Traditionalism" p.4 Seattle Catholic 21 Dec. 2001

We are living in the worst time in Church history and this calls for extraordinary measures to combat heresy and restore liturgical sanity. This means reinstituting the Old Latin Mass which is probably the oldest liturgy and saying NO to the NO Mass which because of its protestantized heteropraxis in prayer and practice which is dragging souls down the wrong road to which they will not recover unless they are warned about this experimental folly! St. Athanasius pray for us!!!


43 posted on 07/15/2004 9:37:15 PM PDT by pro Athanasius (Catholicism is not a "politically correct sound bite".)
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To: pro Athanasius
The Church supplies jurisdiction.

Peter and his successors supply all jurisdiction.

From this it must be clearly understood that Bishops are deprived of the right and power of ruling, if they deliberately secede from Peter and his successors; because, by this secession, they are separated from the foundation on which the whole edifice must rest. They are therefore outside the edifice itself; and for this very reason they are separated from the fold, whose leader is the Chief Pastor; they are exiled from the Kingdom, the keys of which were given by Christ to Peter alone ... No one, therefore, unless in communion with Peter can share in his authority, since it is absurd to imagine that he who is outside can command in the Church. (Leo XIII, Satis Cognitum)

For the SSPX, there can be no state of emergency in any case, since they were offered jurisdiction by the Apostolic See.

Was Athanasius illigal and wrong because he went into other Bishops diocese when he was kicked out of his own and disobeyed the Pope?

St. Athanasius didn't disobey the Pope.

Pope Liberious signed the semi Arian Creed and excommunicated Athansius see last section

No, he didn't.

Take it up with Trent and Pius VI who said that although the Church has the right to change how the sacraments are dispensed it doesn’t have the right to create a New Rite newer than 200 years old

How exactly does the Church create a New Rite more than 200 years old?

It follows from this that the Sovereign Pontiff alone enjoys the right to recognize and establish any practice touching the worship of God, to introduce and approve new rites, as also to modify those he judges to require modification. (Pius XII, "Mediator Dei" 58)

"It is no sense doctrinally false that a Pope, as a private doctor, and much more bishops, when not teaching formally, may err, as we find they did err in the fourth century."

True, but the Church has condemned the following:

1. The proposition, which asserts "that in these later times there has been spread a general obscuring of the more important truths pertaining to religion, which are the basis of faith and of the moral teachings of Jesus Christ,"--heretical. (Pius VI, "Auctorem Fidei", DZ 1501)

Bp. Gasser said at Vatican I:

Indeed, since we believe that the Pope is infallible through the divine assistance, by that very fact we also believe that the assent of the Church will not be lacking to his definitions since it is not able to happen that the body of bishops be separated from its head, and since the Church universal is not able to fail. For it is impossible that general obscurity be spread in respect to the more important truths which touch upon religion, as the Synod of Pistoia held.

46 posted on 07/15/2004 9:46:23 PM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: pro Athanasius

Amen. Well said.


84 posted on 07/15/2004 11:09:07 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: pro Athanasius; gbcdoj; sinkspur
Was Athanasius illigal and wrong because he went into other Bishops diocese when he was kicked out of his own and disobeyed the Pope? 80 percent of the bishops had apostatized and the Pope Liberious signed the semi Arian Creed and excommunicated Athansius see last section.

1) St. Athanasius didn't disobey the Pope.
2) Pope St. Liberius never signed any semi-Arian creeds.
3) Pope St. Liberius never excommunicated St. Athanasius except in some Arian inspired interpolations to some books.
4) Pope St. Liberius was universally praised as completely Orthodox by his contemporaries and sucessors - St. Basil, St. Ambrose, Pope St. Damasus, etc.
5) 80% of the Bishops did not apostasize - that is a complete exaggeration, rather like St. Jerome's rhetorical flourish that the "whole world awoke and groaned to find itself Arian".
6) Pope St. Liberius is considered a Saint by the Catholic Church.

But why let the historical facts stand in the way of a good yarn to support modern day disobedience?

Take it up with Trent and Pius VI who said that although the Church has the right to change how the sacraments are dispensed it doesn’t have the right to create a New Rite newer than 200 years old. This is found in Trent Session 7 Canon 13 on the "Sacraments in General:""If anyone says that the received and approved rites customarily used in the Catholic Church for the solemn administration of the Sacraments can be changed into other new rites by any pastor in the Church whosoever, let him be anathema."

Your quotation is extraordinarily faulty, not surprisingly, so much as to change its meaning.

CANON XIII.-If any one saith, that the received and approved rites of the Catholic Church, wont to be used in the solemn administration of the sacraments, may be contemned, or without sin be omitted at pleasure by the ministers, or be changed, by every pastor of the churches, into other new ones; let him be anathema.

The canon condemns the "laissez faire" attitude towards Sacramental administration, where everyone goes and does his own thing as he sees fit (rather what the SSPX advocates). It has nothing to do with the power of the Pope to reorder the sacramental rites. Especially considering that the Pope proceeded to do just that in the years subsequent to Trent by imposing the Curial Roman Missal, Breviary, and Ritual on the entire Church, while abolishing all the medieval rites.

136 posted on 07/16/2004 6:51:51 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: pro Athanasius; ninenot; GirlShortstop

When you receive the authority to make these decisions, I feel sure that the Vatican will notify you promptly after the conclave that confers the authority.


179 posted on 07/16/2004 8:37:30 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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