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To: gbcdoj

You know what I love about traditionalist that rag on the Pope and think they are more catholic than him...

The fact that they are Protestants using Sola Tradition rather than Sola Scriptora... I really wish they would see this.


32 posted on 07/15/2004 9:23:32 PM PDT by Saint Athanasius ("I've noticed that everyone who is for abortion has already been born." - Ronald Reagan)
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To: Saint Athanasius

"You know what I love about traditionalist that rag on the Pope and think they are more catholic than him..."

That's not hard to do. Most Catholics don't go around kissing the Koran or allowing Hindu priests to use Catholic altars or take the heresies of bishops lightly.


81 posted on 07/15/2004 11:00:15 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Saint Athanasius

This is the Pope in his own words.

pg 11 see http://www.bc.edu/research/cjl/meta-elements/John_Paul_2_tribute_files/John_Paul_II_tribute.pdf

“[Jews are] the people of God of the Old Covenant, never revoked by God . . . . the present-day people of the Covenant concluded with Moses”[Pope John Paul II, "Address to the Jewish Community in Mainz, West Germany" Nov 17, 1980]•

Now this is in direct contradiction to Hebrews 8:13 "Now in saying 'a new Covenant,' he has made obsolete the former one;s and that which is obsolete and has grown old is near its end." and see Denzinger 712 “[partners] in a covenant of eternal love that was never revoked”[Miami, Sep 11, 1987]•


“Certainly, we will preserve the basic elements, the bread, the wine, but all else will be changed according to local traditions: words, gestures, colors, vestments, chants, architecture, decor. The problem of liturgical reform is immense.”
--Pope John Paul, while still Bishop of Krakow, as quoted in Mon Ami: Karol Wojtyla :Le Centurion, 1980, 376 total pages by Fr. Mieczyslaw Malinski, p. 220. Malinski interviewed him in 1963. {There is so much diversity that there is no real unity- the only unity is in tongues of nonsense.}


Pope wonders if he should have been stricter see www.iol.co.za/index.php?click_id=24& art_id=qw1084714561570B211&set_id=1 - 42k Gee I guess with everything falling apart and perverted priest sexually molesting priest (we are not speaking of the good priests just the perverts) he must be right on that issue.

"Father Wojtyla to the Angelicum inRome to do his doctoral dissertation on the mystical theology of St. John of the Cross. Theforemost expert on this topic was the renowned D o m i n i c a n t h e o l o g i a n R e g i n a l d Garrigou-Lagrange, who supervised Wojtyla'swork. Although Wojtyla learned much fromGarrigou-Lagrange, a biographer notes thePolish priest was "disturbed" by Garrigou-Lagrange's opposition to the worker-priestexperiment, and to the New Theology thatsupported it. Tad Szulc, Pope John Paul II", The Biography, NewYork, Simon & Schuster, 1995, p. 155. Father Wojtyla wrote articles that appearedin the "socialist-inclined" Catholic publicationTygodnik Powszechny, a newspaper thatregularly infuriated Poland's Primate, CardinalStefan Wyszynski. (see Jonathan Kwitny, Man of the Century, The Life andTimes of John Paul II, New York, Henry Holt andCompany, 1997, p. 158.) The Primate's humor worsened when an Archbishop went behind his back to have Wojtyla appointed bishop. WhenWyszynski later called Wojtyla "an opportunist,"it was not a compliment.(See Ibid., p. 162) Poland's new bishop continued writing articles, and even poetry, and acquired a reputation as a progressive. His most notablewriting accomplishment was the book Love And Responsibility, a primer and apologia for naturalfamily planning that was translated into English
The book contained a foreword by Wojtyla's friend, Father
Henri de Lubac, a Jesuit neo-modernist whose theology was condemnedby Pius XII in Humani Generis.The two met again at the Second VaticanCouncil. De Lubac had been rehabilitated by Pope John XXIII, a rehabilitation that did not involve De Lubac modifying his neo-modernism.De Lubac and Bishop Wojtyla collaborated on the Council document Gaudium et Spes, adocument repeatedly cited by Pope John Paul II. Recalling this experience, the Pope remarked:"I am particularly indebted to Father Yves Congar(5) and to Father Henri de Lubac. I still remember today the words with which the latter encouraged me to persevere in the lineof thought that I had
taken up during thediscussion ... From that moment on I enjoyed a special friendship with Father deLubac.(6) The Pope does not elaborate on the line ofthought De Lubac encouraged him on, but it is known that De Lubac's theology tended to supernaturalize the natural, and that he laid stresson two precepts. First, that by His incarnation,Christ united Himself with every man. Second,that Revelation is "anthropocentric," that isman-centered: it consists of God "revealing man to himself". Karol Wojtyla has also stressedthese precepts, both
before and after becomingPope John Paul II. Each precept can beunderstood in a traditional sense. Each preceptcan also be understood according to the thesis of universal salvation, whereby the union of Christwith every man is not merely a material union buta formal, supernatural one. In thisunderstanding, God "revealing man to himself"means man realizing that he innately possesses a supernatural union of sanctifying grace withChrist, and is therefore already
"saved".In 1976 Cardinal Wojtyla gave a series of Lenten conferences to Paul VI and members ofthe Roman Curia. He stressed Gaudium et Spes,and the two precepts noted above. Theconferences were later published as a book, Sign of Contradiction.(7) Another theologian condemned by Pius XII, and rehabilitated by John XXIII without having to forsake his censured ideas.6. His Holiness John Paul II, Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Alfred A. Knopf, Publisher, 1994, p. 159. So indebted was Bishop W ojtyla that upon becoming
Pope that he made both Congar and De Lubac Cardinals.7. Published by The Seabury Press, 1979


Bishop W ojtyla said in 1963, “The convoking of a Council and its preparations have had an unexpected result. In less than four years, the interior situation in the Church has changed in unbelievable fashion. Everywhere in the Catholic world fervent voices have béen raised to demand a new approach to evangelism. A new climate, born of a reciprocal wish, has been born in re s between the various Christian Churches. No other Council had such a great preparation, never was such ample sounding of Catholic opinion made. Not only bishops; catholic universities and the General Superiors of religious congregations have expressed their opinions on the subject of council problems, but also a large percentage of lay catholics, and even non-Catholics. Such eminent theologians as Henri de Lubac, J. Danielou, Y. Congar, H. Kung, . Lombardi, Karl Rahner.and others have played am tr role in the preparation.
“The object of John XXIII was above all the unity of Christians; giant steps have been made along this road. The church is persuaded, as never before, that what unites Christians is stronger than what divides them. The yearning for unity of Christians joins hands with the wish for the unity of all the human race. The new conception of the idea of the people of God has replaced the old truth on the possibility of redemption outside the visible bounds of the Church. This premise shows the altitude of the church towards the other religions, which is the basis for recognizing values which are spiritual, human and Christian at once, extending to religions such as Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism ... . . The Church wishes to undertake a dialogue with representatives of these religions. Here Judaism occupies a particular place. The draft of the future Declaration will speak clearly of the spiritual unity between Christians and Jews.
“The Church concerns herself in dialogue with unbelievers who are of capital importance to our times, when for the first time in history, nonbelief and atheism appear as phenomena of the masses. The church tries to uncover the causes and origins of atheism, and she researches their interior motivation as well as the exterior. The Church understands that tendency towards the liberation of man and his delivery from all alienations, manifested under the form of atheism, is perhaps a manner of seeking God.”Malinski, op. cit. p. 189.

“Further on, we find proposed revelations on the orientation of the Council, and the future of the Church:
“Above all, it acted to restore the authority of each bishop and promote the decentralisation inside the Church, thus the return of the principle of collegiality, revision of pastoral methods to maintain their vigour, and now introducing new methods and forms, sometimes quite audacious. . There is also the of the question of the universality of the church; it means a changing of attitude towards ancient cultures of people who are non European. it is necessary to de-westernise Christianity. People with an ancient culture find barriers only explained by psychology against Christianity: they are presented with European trappings! Africanization, Indianisation, Japanisation, etc. is seen as necessary. It consist in planting basic Christian ideas into their culture. We know that all this is neither simple nor easy to realize. It is the end of the era of Constantine, characterized by firm agreement... Malinski, op. cit. p. 189.

He goes on "between altar and throne, between Church and States, brought to the highest point by the birth of the Holy Roman Empire in the ninth century. We face a grave problem! Working out anew relations between Church and State, the rights of the Church, and religious liberty. Going further, one must speak of re-evaluating the place of the laity in the Church, and then developing ececumenical themes on a scale previously unknown in the history of the Church.”see Malinski, op. cit. p. 191.

The above statements demonstrate the following facts. Pope John Paul II while Bishop of Krakow had a radical “progressivist” agenda . He wanted a radical change in the liturgy and mentions keeping only the “elements” (which would mean the matter) but why no mention of the form or the intention? Why such loose theology? He praises theologians considered dissident under Pius XII some of whom were censured. He presents an agenda which sounds like it could have been proposed by a humanist or Freemason (I am not saying he is one or the other.). Wojtyla talks about a “yearning for unity of Christians” which ln 1919,the Holy See being invited to send delegates, politely declined. Pope Benedict XV explained that although his earnest desire was one fold and one shepherd, it would be impossible for the Catholic Church to join with others in search of unity. As for the Church of Christ, it is already one and could not give the appearance of searching for itself or for its own unity.Catholic Ecyclopedia for School and Home, McGraw Hill, New York, 1965, Vol. 3, p.670.
See http://salbert.tripod.com/index-8.html.

He gives many sycretistic statements that speak of a general brotherhood of man which has some truth to it given that we are all sinners who are desendants of Adam while he even makes a statement that atheism, is perhaps a manner of seeking God.” Well that is a new one on me. Then he wants to “de Westernize” Christianity which is really a denial of our Roman/Latin Christian heritage. Now it is obvious that the East does not share this same heretige but why take it away from those of us who did have it and replace it with a New Mass mess and enculturation which confuses everyone and creates chaos in the Mass? It is clear that what we are experiencing today in all of its horrible confusion is due to those “intellectual revolutionary architects”who created perhaps unintentionaly for some a "tower of babel". I am afraid that we are in for more of the same with the next Pope. see Traditional Catholic publisher Roger McCaffrey looks at the future of the Papacy see http://catholiccitizens.org/platform/platformview.asp?c=10903.


96 posted on 07/16/2004 12:38:32 AM PDT by pro Athanasius (Catholicism is not a "politically correct sound bite".)
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