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To: BlackElk
a man who was apparently a fine priest until he fell hopelessly in love with his own opinions

Here is the argument in a nutshell. Is the traditional Catholic Mass simply "his own opinion" or is it the very reason for our existence, the reason he is a priest, the source and summit of grace and worship, the fountain of divine life which he could not withold from his parishioners even at the cost of his life?

Those who justify all of the theological and ecclesiological and liturgical novelties since Vatican II invariably make the claim that the position of traditional Catholics is no more than "their own opinion." Who is correct in the current situation rests entirely on whether this claim is true or not. Is the traditional Catholic faith and the traditional Catholic Mass no more than the pesonal opinion of traditional Catholics, or is it something solid, something real, something divine, something eternal, something that never changes with the times, something that all people can come to know with surety, and not just as an "opinion"?

239 posted on 07/16/2004 11:01:59 AM PDT by Maximilian
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To: Maximilian; ninenot; GirlShortstop; gbcdoj
You are forgetting several things, at the very least, if you think it is just a matter of opinion.

1. My opinion and cultural taste is that the Novus Ordo Mass, while normative in our sorry times is a very low rent set of rubrics and that the Tridentine (especially if said in a manageable 1/2 hour or so but to each his own) is the magnificent Mass of our ancestors with far more satisfying (but no more valid) rubrics. Each, whether you agree or not is perfectly valid and, when authorized, licit.

2. It is not just opinion, it is also an acquired but obvious matter of personal cultural taste and preference.

3. Anyone or group like SSPX who denies the very validity of the Novus Ordo Mass effectively repudiates the pope and the papacy and is essentially sede vacantist unless and until the group gets its way.

4. No bishop, including the late Marcel or his lineal successors in SSPX has any business whatsoever choosing and consecrating his own bishops in direct defiance of and disobedience to the reigning Vicar of Christ on Earth regardless of the concocted rationalizations of his sect.

5. If and when we ever have a pope of whom the schismatics might approve, just how do they expect such a pope to be obeyed when they have spent 15 years to date raising defiance, disobedience and vilification of the pope to a high art form.

6. The schism has published its opinion that Novus Ordo Masses, each and every one, are INVALID.

7. Fr. Zigrang, like Marcel and the Econe 4 before him took vows of obedience. He did not take vows of saying ONLY Tridentine Masses. Nor did they. He disobeyed his admittedly execrable bishop but he disobeyed his bishop's perfectly moral order as to where Zigrang will serve and apparently the liturgy of his public Masses. No amount of hissy fits by SSPX is going to convert that violation of their endless self-obsession with their own opinions and tastes into an immoral order. We are a Church. We are His Church. We are not an anarchy. License is NOT freedom.

8. "which he could not withhold from his parishioners even at the cost of his life." What drama queen tripe! If you do not think it is drama queen tripe, then answer the following two questions which should display your beliefs: A. At the Novus Ordo Mass, is the bread and wine transubstantiated into the Body and Blood of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (assuming appropriate bread and wine which Fr. Zigrang can certainly assure)?

B. Does the Novus Ordo Mass convey to the participants in the pews the same graces as are conveyed by the Tridentine Mass.

C. If the answer to either of the foregoing questions is no, why not?

499 posted on 07/17/2004 2:19:44 PM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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