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Father Zigrang suspended by Bishop Joseph Fiorenza
Christ or Chaos ^ | 15th July 2004 | Dr Thomas Droleskey

Posted on 07/15/2004 6:17:56 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena

Catholics exhibit fidelity to the Tradition of Holy Mother Church in many ways. Each of us has a distinctive, unrepeatable immortal soul that has personal characteristics of its own not shared by anyone else. Not even identical twins are the same in every respect. This plurality of souls in the Mystical Bride of Christ is reflected in the many different communities of men and women religious that have developed over the Church’s history. Each community has its own charism and mission. Ideally, each community of men and women religious should be totally faithful to everything contained in the Deposit of Faith and expressed and protected in the authentic Tradition of the Church. The means of expressing this fidelity, however, will vary from community to community.

What is true of communities of men and women religious is true also of us all, including our priests. Some priests have the patience of Saint Francis de Sales or Saint John Bosco, meek and mild, able to handle the rough seas that beset Holy Mother Church and/or themselves personally with perfect equanimity. Other priests have had the bluntness of St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio, mincing no words in their sermons about the necessity of rooting out sin and the possibility of going to Hell for all eternity. Both St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio were devoted to their role as an alter Christus in the confessional, using that hospital of Divine Mercy to administer the infinite merits of Our Lord’s Most Precious Blood to bring sacramental absolution to those to whom they had preached in blunt terms.

In addition to fidelity, though, there are different ways of expressing courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings. Some Catholics stood up quite directly to the unjust and illicit dictates of the English Parliament, which had been passed at the urging of King Henry VIII, at the time of the Protestant Revolt in England. Others kept their silence for as long as was possible, as was the case with Saint Thomas More, who discharged his mind publicly only after he had been found guilty on the basis of perjured testimony of denying the supremacy of the king as the head of the Church in England. Some priests in the Elizabethan period, such as St. Edmund Campion, almost dared officials to arrest them as they went to different locales to offer Holy Mass or as they took groups to the Tower of London. Other priests went quietly from house to house to offer the Traditional Mass underground as both the civil and ecclesiastical authorities in England used every sort of pressure imaginable to convince holdout “Romans” to go over to Protestantism and worship in the precusor liturgy of our own Novus Ordo Missae. Still other newly ordained priests came over from France, knowing that they might be able to offer only one Mass in England before they were arrested and executed.

The same thing occurred in France 255 years after the arrest and execution of Saints John Fisher and Thomas More. Some priests simply stood up to the agents of the French Revolution. Others, such as Blessed Father William Chaminade, donned disguises as they went from place to place, much as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro did in Mexico prior to his execution at the hands of the Masonic revolutionaries in Mexico on November 23, 1927. Ignatius Cardinal Kung, then the Bishop of Shanghai, China, was hauled before a dog-track stadium in his see city in 1956 before thousands of spectators. The Red Chinese authorities expected him to denounce the pope and thus to save himself from arrest. The brave bishop exclaimed the same thing as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro, “Long live Christ the King,” and was hauled off to spend over thirty years in prison before being released. Oh, yes, there are so many ways for priests to demonstrate their fidelity and courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings.

Well, many bishops and priests who are faithful to the fullness of the Church’s authentic Tradition have been subjected to a unspeakable form of persecution in the past thirty-five to forty years: treachery from within the highest quarters of the Church herself. Men who have held fast to that which was believed always, everywhere and by everyone prior for over 1,900 years found themselves termed as “disobedient,” “schismatic,” “heretical,” and “disloyal” for their resisting novelties that bore no resemblance to Catholicism and a great deal of resemblance to the very things that were fomented by Martin Luther and John Calvin and Thomas Cranmer, things for which Catholics half a millennium ago shed their blood rather than accept. Many priests who have tried to remain faithful to Tradition within the framework of a diocesan or archdiocesan structure have been sent to psychiatric hospitals or penalized by being removed from their pastorates or by being denied pastorates altogether. Others, though, have faced more severe penalties.

Angelus Press, which is run by the Society of Saint Pius X, put out a book earlier this year, Priest, Where is Thy Mass? Mass, Where is Thy Priest?, which discussed the stories of seventeen priests who had decided to offer only the Traditional Latin Mass and to never again offer the Novus Ordo Missae. One of those priests is my good friend, Father Stephen Zigrang, who offered the Traditional Latin Mass in his [now] former parish of Saint Andrew Church in Channelview, Texas, on June 28-29, 2003, telling his parishioners that he would never again offer the new Mass.

As I reported extensively at this time last year, Father Zigrang was placed on a sixty day leave-of-absence by the Bishop of Galveston-Houston, the Most Reverend Joseph Fiorenza, and told to seek psychological counseling, preferably from Father Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R. Father Zigrang took his two month leave of absence, making a retreat at Saint Thomas Aquinas Seminary in Winona, Minnesota, in early August of last year, returning to the Houston area to take up residence in the Society’s Queen of Angels Chapel in Dickinson, Texas. Bishop Fiorenza met with Father Zigrang in early September, seeming at the time to let him stay for a year with the Society while the diocese continued to pay his health insurance premiums. Within days of that early September meeting, however, Fiorenza was threatening to suspend Father Zigrang by the beginning of October if he did not vacate Queen of Angels and return to a diocesan assignment.

October of 2003 came and went. Father Zigrang heard no word from Bishop Fiorenza or the chancery office until he received the following letter, dated Jun 10, 2004:

Dear Father Zigrang:

Once more I appeal to you to cease your association with the Society of St. Pius X and return to your responsibilities as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston

Your continued association with a schismatic group which has severed communion with the Holy Father is confusing and a scandal to many of Christ’s faithful. You are well aware that without appropriate jurisdiction the marriages witnessed and confessions heard by the priests of the St. Society of St. Paul X are invalid and people are being lead to believe otherwise. You are also aware that the Holy See has asked the faithful not to attend Masses celebrated in the Chapels of the Society of St. Pius X.

I plead with you to return by July 1, 2004, to the presbyterate of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston and receive a priestly assignment from me. This letter serves as a penal precept (c. 1319) and is a final canonical warning (c. 1347.1). If I do not hear from you by June 30, 2004, I will impose a just penalty for disobeying a legitimate precept (c. 1371.2). The just penalty may include suspension (c. 133.1), nn 1-2: prohibition of all acts of the power of orders and governance.

I offer this final warning after consultation with the Holy See and will proceed to impose a penalty if you persist in disobedience to a legitimate precept. It is my fervent hope and constant prayer that you not remain out of union with the Holy Father.

Fraternally in Christ,

Joseph A. Fiorenza, Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend R. Troy Gately, Vice Chancellor

Overlooking Bishop Fiorenza’s John Kerry-like gaffe in terming the Society of Saint Pius X the “St. Society of St. Paul X,” the letter reproduced above makes the erroneous assertion that the Society of Saint Pius X is in schism and that they are not in communion with the Holy Father. A series of articles in The Remnant has dealt with this very issue at great length. Fiorenza’s contentions that the marriages witnessed and the confessions heard by the Society of Saint Pius X are invalid also flies in the face of the fact that the Holy See “regularized” the Society of Saint John Mary Vianney in Campos, Brazil, without demanding the convalidation of the marriages their priests had witnesses nor asking that confessions be re-heard. The glaring inconsistency of the canonical rhetoric of Vatican functionaries and their actual practices continues to be lost on Bishop Fiorenza.

Father Zigrang did not respond to Bishop Fiorenza’s June 10 letter. He received another letter, dated July 2, 2004, the contents of which are so explosive as to contain implications for the state of the Church far beyond the case of Father Zigrang and far beyond the boundaries of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston:

Dear Father Zigrang:

With great sadness I inform you that, effective immediately, you are suspended from the celebration of all sacraments, the exercise of governance and all rights attached to the office of pastor (Canon 1333.1, nn 1-2-3).

This action is taken after appropriate canonical warnings (canon 1347) and failure to obey my specific directive that you cease the affiliation with the schismatic Society of St. Pius X and accept an assignment to serve as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston (Canon 1371.2).

I want to repeat what I have said to you in person and in the written canonical warnings, that I prayerfully urge you to not break communion with the Holy Father and cease to be associated with the schism which rejects the liciety of the Novus Ordo Mass, often affirmed by Pope John Paul II. This schism also calls into question the teachings of the Second Vatican Council regarding ecumenism and the enduring validity of the Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel.

Your return to full union with the Church and to the acceptance of an assignment to priestly ministry in the Diocese of Galveston-Houston will be joyfully received as an answer to prayer. May the Holy Spirit lead and guide you to renew the promise of obedience you made on the day of your ordination.

Fraternally in Christ,

Most Reverend Joseph A. Fiorenza Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend Monsignor Frank H. Rossi Chancellor

cc: His Eminence, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, Commissio Ecclesia Dei

Bishop Fiorenza’s July 2, 2004, letter is riddled with errors.

First, The Society of Saint Pius X does not reject the liciety of the Novus Ordo Missae. Its founder, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, criticized the nature of the Novus Ordo and pointed out its inherent harm. That is far different from saying that the Novus Ordo is always and in all instances invalid. Is Bishop Fiorenza claiming that any criticism of the Novus Ordo and efforts to demonstrate how it is a radical departure from Tradition are schismatic acts? Is Father Romano Thommasi, for example, to be taken to task for writing scholarly articles, based on the very minutes of the Consilium, about how Archbishop Annibale Bugnini lied about the true origin of the some constituent elements of the Novus Ordo?

Second, the Society is not, as noted above, in schism, at least not as that phrase was defined by the First Vatican Council. The Society recognizes that the See of Peter is occupied at present by Pope John Paul II. Its priests pray for the Holy Father and for the local bishop in the Canon of the Mass. The Society can be said to be disobedient to the Holy Father’s unjust edicts and commands. The Society of Saint Pius X is not in schism.

Third, Bishop Fiorenza seems to be stating that ecumenism is a de fide dogma of the Catholic Church from which no Catholic may legitimately dissent. If this is his contention, it is he who is grave error. Ecumenism is a pastoral novelty that was specifically condemned by every Pope prior to 1958. Pope Pius XI did so with particular eloquence in Mortalium Animos in 1928. Novelties that are not consonant with the authentic Tradition of the Church bind no one under penalty of sin, no less binds a priest under penalty of canonical suspension. A rejection of ecumenism constitutes in no way a schismatic act.

Fourth, Bishop Fiorenza’s assertion that the “Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel” is enduringly valid is itself heretical. No human being can be saved by a belief in the Mosaic Covenant, which was superceded in its entirety when the curtain was torn in two in the Temple on Good Friday at the moment Our Lord had breathed His last on the Holy Cross. It is a fundamental act of fidelity to the truths of the Holy Faith to resist and to denounce the heretical contention, made in person by Bishop Fiorenza to Father Zigrang last year, that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant. Were the Apostles, including the first pope, Saint Peter, wrong to try to convert the Jews? Was Our Lord joking when He said that a person had no life in him if he did not eat of His Body and drink of His Blood?

Fifth, Bishop Fiorenza has failed repeatedly to take into account Father Zigrang’s aboslute rights under Quo Primum to offer the Immemorial Mass of Tradition without any episcopal approval:

Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever order or by whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us.

We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is to be forced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force–notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemoial prescription–except, however, if of more than two hundred years’ standing. Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this letter or heedlessly to venture to go contrary to this notice of Our permission., statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Should anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

It is apparently the case that Bishop Fiorenza received a “green light,” if you will, to act against Father Zigrang from Dario Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos, who is both the Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy and the President of Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, to whom a copy of the July 2, 2004, suspension letter was sent. Father Zigrang surmises that Bishop Fiorenza brought up the issue of his case during the bishops’ ad limina apostolorum visit in Rome recently. Father believes that Cardinal Hoyos wants to send a signal to priests who might be tempted to follow his lead that Rome will let bishops crack down on them without mercy and without so much as an acknowledgment that Quo Primum actually means what it says. Whether or not the specific “schismatic” acts Father Zigrang is alleged to have committed by being associated with the Society of Saint Pius X at Queen of Angels Church in Dickinson, Texas, were outlined to Cardinal Hoyos by Bishop Fiorenza remains to be seen.

Naturally, the grounds on which Bishop Fiorenza suspended Father Zigrang are beyond the sublime. As my dear wife Sharon noted, “Doesn’t Bishop Fiorenza have a better canon lawyer on his staff than the one who advised him on the grounds of suspending Father Zigrang.” Indeed.

The very fact that Fiorenza could make these incredible claims and believes that he has a good chance of prevailing in Rome speaks volumes about the state of the Church in her human elements at present. Will Rome let the bishops govern unjustly and make erroneous assertions about “schism” as well as heretical claims (that a priest must accept that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant and that ecumenism is a matter of de fide doctrine) with its full assent and approval? Will Rome countenance the same sort of misuse of power by local bishops upon traditional priests in the Twenty-first Century that was visited upon “Romans” by the civil state and the Anglican “church” in England from 1534 to 1729? The answers to these questions are probably self-evident. Putting them down in black and white, though, might help priests who are looking to Rome for some canonical protection for the Traditional Latin Mass to come to realize that they wait in vain for help from the Holy See, where the Vicar of Christ occupies himself at present with the writing of a book about existentialism!

There will be further updates on this matter as events warrant. Father Zigrang is weighing his options as to how to respond to the allegations contained in Bishop Fiorenza’s letter of suspension, understanding that the answers provided by the Holy See will have implications of obviously tremendous gravity. Given the intellectual dishonesty that exists in Rome at present, Father Zigrang’s case may only be decided on the technical grounds of “obedience” to his bishop, ignoring all of the other issues, including the rights of all priests under Quo Primum offer the Traditional Latin Mass without approval and their rights to never be forced to offer Holy Mass according to any other form.

To force Rome to act on what it might otherwise avoid, perhaps it might be wise for someone to bring a canonical denunciation of Bishop Fiorenza for his contentions about ecumenism and the “enduring validity” of the Mosaic Covenant, spelling out in chapter and verse how these things have been condemned in the history of the Church. Then again, Fiorenza could “defend” himself by simply pointing to the Pope himself, which is precisely why this matter has such grave implications. This matter is certain to be explored in great detail in the weeks and months ahead by competent canonists and by theologians who understand the authentic Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Father Zigrang noted the following in an e-mail to me dated July 14, 2004:

I examined canon 1371.2 (the canon that the Bishop says warrants my suspension), checking a good commentary, the disobedience of an Ordinary's legitimate precept may warrant a just penalty but not weighty enough to warrant a censure (e.g. suspension). I think this point may have been missed by the Bishop's hired canon lawyer, when the Bishop was weighing his options about what to do with one of his wayward priests. As I said to you before, the Bishop has a history of not suspending priests, even those who commit crimes beyond mere disobedience. Although lately I've been told he recently suspended a priest who attempted marriage with one of his parishioners. This was done about the time my suspension was in the works.

Our Lady, Queen of the Angels, pray for Father Zigrang.

Our Lady, Help of Christians, pray for all priests in Father Zigrang’s situation so that they will be aided by their seeking refuge in you in their time of persecution and trial.


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To: ninenot

UGH! I hate typing, I absolutely hate it. I meant to say HE WAS NOT RE ORDAINED. I need to break my fingers now for making such a horrible typo.

Again, none, absolutely NONE of the SSPX priests that have become regularized with Rome again thoughout the years have been re ordained, since tyhey allready have valid orders.


801 posted on 07/20/2004 1:55:51 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: ninenot

Hide the fact? Nonsense. The "excomunication" simply doesn't exist. There is no excommunication. The Pope wrongly believes there was. But since it was automatic, and not the result of any papal investigation, the truth does not lie in the Pope's opinion, it lies in the intent of the participants. THAT'S canon law. If you don't like it, ask the Pope to change the canons. But not even the Pope can pretend it doesn't say what it says.


802 posted on 07/20/2004 2:35:10 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Mike Fieschko

Sure I read it. But it does not apply. Campos was in exactly the situation as SSPX. It used supplied jurisdiction--and its validity was upheld by Rome. End of discussion.


803 posted on 07/20/2004 2:38:16 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ninenot
Seems to me that the co-habitation problem is a bit closer to you. You could evangelize them, rather than screeching about Bishops.

I don't know a single couple who has been married by an SSPX priest.

Or haven't you had children yet?

You're a head-case.

804 posted on 07/20/2004 2:38:52 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: ultima ratio

The SSPX Bishops were ex communicated under the same Canon law as the Bishops of the Chinese Patriotic Catholic church was by Pope pIus XII in the 50s, that a Bishop can not concecrate other Bishops without the approval of the Pope. As I said in a previous pope, this situation could have been rectified, by the SSPX Bishops took the difficult road that might never lead back.


805 posted on 07/20/2004 2:42:17 PM PDT by RFT1
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To: ultima ratio
Campos was in exactly the situation as SSPX. It used supplied jurisdiction--and its validity was upheld by Rome.

Do you have a source for the statement that the Vatican upheld the validity of the claim to supplied jurisdiction?
806 posted on 07/20/2004 2:45:22 PM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: ninenot

"While you're in BCT, by the way, think a little more deeply on the topic of Losing the Vietnam War. You might actually understand the wisdom of the Founders: 'no foreign entanglements.'"

Typical liberal nonsense. YOU might want to read about the postwar reconstruction of Germany and Japan for a more useful analogy. Back then we took two totalitarian nations and introduced them to democracy. The rest is history. We made mistakes back then also--though we didn't have an anti-American press back then to dog us every step of the way; and we make mistakes right now--but the the policy is still enlightened and motivated by unprecedented decency and goodness, reopening schools and hospitals, repairing utilities and restarting Iraq's oil industry, with the proceeds going to the Iraqi people. We even gave the Iraqis OUTRIGHT a grant of billions. Stop swallowing leftwing propaganda--put out by the same people, remember, who predicted war in Iraq would lead to the loss of hundreds of thousands of civilian lives and millions of war refugees. It never happened. We blew up a few palaces and within weeks liberated a suffering people.


807 posted on 07/20/2004 2:53:02 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Grey Ghost II

Yeah, they're still Muslims, but they're not getting their tongues cut out or their hands chopped off and they're not being shoved into giant shredders. An improvement, I'd say, wouldn't you?


808 posted on 07/20/2004 2:58:44 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Mike Fieschko

Can't prove a negative. Suppose YOU show me where a single marriage had to be somehow "regulated" by Rome? No such instance can be found.


809 posted on 07/20/2004 3:00:50 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Mike Fieschko; ultima ratio
It was upheld in at least four documents, one which is official. Saying there is no trial, so it is invalid, is an invalid defense.

The best one is the in the words of John-Paul II himself, the Motu Priprio:
In itself, this act was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act. In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops on 17 June last, Mons. Lefebvre and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.

There doesn't have to be a trial. An abortionist is excommunicated without a trial, they have been given warnings, and know the act they are performing leads to excommunication. There is no adversarial Law in the Church, as we Americans know it.

The act was fully admitted by the participants, and they were given clear lawful instructions on how to reverse the act. Among them were to hold a Novus Ordo Mass, to show what they mean by the Mass is licit. If it is not licit as a Mass, then the SSPX is not going to be able to be brought back into the fold.

Since is it so subject to local interpretation, could not the smart people of the SSPX figure out how to say the Mass in the manner of reverence they prefer, and yet in the Novus Ordo style?

The real answer is POWER. Many have a great deal of respect as a leading schismatic in the SSPX, that standing would go away if they regularize.

Like I said before, look at some people here, and judge for yourself. I should make it clear, Ultima Ratio, for all the twists he does, and all the unwelcome tweaking I may employ, isn't a bad guy. He comes off as a gentleman, and perhaps he will be able to come to a position where he can return to Catholicism.

Others, like some sedavacanists, think by shouting pedophile, or shiva, or whatever, think that substitutes for an argument. The latter group may never return to the Bosom of the Church.
810 posted on 07/20/2004 3:16:02 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: ultima ratio
An improvement, I'd say, wouldn't you?

Yes, I would say it's an improvement. It would also be an improvement for the people in Chad if our taxes were raised by 100% and the money was sent over there to feed them. Are you in favor of that?

811 posted on 07/20/2004 3:34:34 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: ultima ratio
Can't prove a negative.

That's right. (I can't prove the Vatican did not use 'supplied jurisdiction' as a reason for recognizing the marriages 'by' the Campos fathers.)

You typed in #803:

Campos was in exactly the situation as SSPX. It used supplied jurisdiction--and its validity was upheld by Rome. End of discussion.

What do you have to back up your positive claim that

It used supplied jurisdiction--and its validity was upheld by Rome.

Are you claiming that the Vatican accepted the 'supplied jurisdiction' argument for the marriages 'by' the Campos fathers?
812 posted on 07/20/2004 3:39:49 PM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: Mike Fieschko

Of course I'm claiming that. And it's the truth. There is not a single case of married couples having been told their marriages were in any way irregular. The Campos priests--just as their SSPX counterparts--had supplied jurisdiction. See the detailed canonical information I provided above.


813 posted on 07/20/2004 4:44:54 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Grey Ghost II

You need to take the longer view. Chad has no strategic importance, Iraq has enormous strategic importance. The investment there in the heart of the Middle East will pay us back a hundredfold if it one day breaks the back of Islamic terrorism. Iraq is now a friendly country--as is Afghanistan--an ally in the war against terror and a neighbor of Iran, a friend to terrorism which already is on the verge of revolution. If Iran tips and the mullahs are overthrown, there will be a huge dividend for the US in terms of longterm peace. Most of the news you get on this is short-sighted and outright biased.


814 posted on 07/20/2004 4:51:32 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: RFT1
The SSPX Bishops were ex communicated under the same Canon law as the Bishops of the Chinese Patriotic Catholic church was by Pope pIus XII in the 50s, that a Bishop can not concecrate other Bishops without the approval of the Pope.

Yet, some Amchurch bishops financially support and instruct CPA priests and seminarians in their seminaries and even allow the CPA priests, unbeknownst to the parishioners, to "celebrate" Mass in their diocesan churches.

And Rome remains silent, even though they are aware of it, thanks to the Cardinal Kung Foundation.

815 posted on 07/20/2004 5:04:13 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: ultima ratio

Smearing a forehead with ashes and giving flowers doesn't involve any prayers or hymns to false Gods. And of course, the prayers and hymns could also be reworded to be directed towards the Lord.


816 posted on 07/20/2004 5:36:39 PM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: ultima ratio
See the detailed canonical information I provided above.

The canonical information from you is from the SSPX, correct? (I'm looking at post #777.)

Do you have a Vatican source for the statement you made in #803, that the Vatican accepted the 'supplied jurisdiction' argument?
817 posted on 07/20/2004 5:38:10 PM PDT by Mike Fieschko
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To: Dominick; Mike Fieschko

There was no excommunication and no schism. The motu proprio referred to was in error and in conflict with the Pope's own Canon Law.

You have never answered my arguments, but instead continually disseminate falsehoods. This being the case, I am forced to once again spell out the deception and the injustice perpetrated against Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX. Here are the facts.

1. In all the years since Vatican II, neither Paul VI nor John Paul II had allowed a single traditionalist priest to be consecrated. Clearly Rome intended such a priesthood to pass from the scene, since only a bishop might ordain such men. Without such priests, there could be no traditional Mass. Hence the consecration of bishops was not only necessary, but crucial. All of traditional Catholicism depended on their consecration.

2. The Archbishop was 82 years old and failing in health. He was tormented by the prospect that the traditional Catholic faith was deliberately being destroyed. But despite his professed fears, Rome would not allow him the mandate he sought to consecrate traditional bishops. During this same period, JPII allowed perverts to be consecrated; he allowed outright heretics to be consecrated. But he would not allow a single traditional priest to be consecrated.

3. Meanwhile the Church was imploding. Scandals were erupting everywhere. The New Mass became the scene of more and more liturgical abuses. Statistics showed Mass attendance declining precipitously, vocations declining, whole religious orders collapsing, conversions in steep decline, seminaries shutting down at an incredible pace and those remaining compromised by corruption and heterodoxy. So the emergency was real--and the Archbishop believed it was the direct result of the radical agendas of Paul VI and JPII.

4. Negotiations ensued between the Archbishop and Rome. Rome agreed the Archbishop might have a traditionalist bishop--but would not agree to a name or a date, and would not accept a single candidate proferred by the Archbishop. Not only this, but it set up a commission to regulate traditional Catholic affairs--and this team was to be staffed by those hostile to tradition primarily.

5. The Archbishop pushed for a definite date--and got none. He finally got tired of vague promises and came to the conclusion Rome was playing a waiting game--waiting for him to die in order to take over the movement and destroy it. In his view this would have done irreparable damage to the Church. It would have meant losing the traditional Mass and the vehicle which had kept it alive for over a thousand years--the traditional priesthood--and it would have done incalculable damage to the faith.

6. Four traditionalist priests were consecrated as bishops. But the Archbishop did so by evoking a canon of Canon Law which exempted anyone from incurring a penalty if he disobeyed a superior out of fear of a state of necessity. There could have been no doubt the Archbishop sincerely believed there was such a state. He saw the situation as calamitous--and he believed modernism was out to destroy traditionalism--it had been pursuing a destructive agenda for decades since the close of the Council.

7. But there was also another canon that supported the Archbishop as well. It was a canon which stated that even if an individual WERE MISTAKEN ABOUT A STATE OF NECESSITY, as long as his belief was sincere, there could be no penalty. Now there can be no doubt whatsoever the Archbishop was sincere. He had spoken of his fears for decades. He had pleaded with Rome and railed against modernist heresies. He saw traditional Catholicism being destroyed deliberately all across the globe. There is no possibility anyone could doubt he was sincere about his fears.

8. The Pope chose to ignore all this as well as his own canons. Instead he accused the Archbishop and his followers of deliberately denying his papal authority by a sin of disobedience--a charge of outright schism. Such a charge was bizarre under the circumstances, especially in light of the fact that disobedience in Canon Law in no way implies schism, and in light of the fact that the Pope was routinely disobeyed by bishops all across the globe. Not only this, but the Pope made his charges despite the fact that the canons provided the penality of excommunication only CONDITIONALLY--i.e., only if the internal dispositions of the individuals were culpable.

9. In fact, the Canon Law decree was latae sententiae--that is to say, it was automatic and was totally dependent on the internal dispositions of the individuals involved. That is to say, only the individuals themselves could know the truth of their own circumstances. The Pope had no access to the motives of the accused--nor would he give any credence to the long history of the SSPX's defense of traditional Catholicism. The Pope, in other words, was acting as judge, juror, court, and plaintiff, all wrapped in one. This was a latae sententiae decree he was commenting on in the motu proprio--one which he could have known very little about since it depended on the internal disposition of the individuals involved, not on his papal opinion.

10. Those who defend the Pope, do so on grounds of the Archbishop's disobedience. But disobedience is not inherently evil--it is not always and everywhere wrong. It depends on the circumstance. For instance, if the Pope gave a command which would have harmed the Church, theologians insist such a command would be illegitimate. St. Robert Bellarmine put it this way:

"Just as it is licit to resist a Pontiff who aggresses the body, it is also licit to resist one who aggresses the souls or who disturbs civil order, or, above all, one who attempts to destroy the Church. I say that it is licit to resist him by not doing what he orders and preventing his will from being executed. It is not licit, however, to judge, punish, or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." (St. Robert Cardinal Bellarmine, doctor of the Church; De Romano Pontifice, 2,29)

11. St. Thomas Aquinas says something similar. Popes do not have a mandate to harm the Church. Nor may they impose a sentency of "schism" where it does not exist. No priest or bishop of SSPX has ever denied the Pope's legitimacy. Their sole desire was to protect Traditional Catholicism--something the Pope hismelf should be doing. Since he didn't and doesn't--they were forced to act themselves, and did so properly, according to the Pope's own Canon Law. No Motu Propio decree can change this--and the decree itself is belied by the far more authoritative canons of the Pope's own Canon Law.

12. Had the Pope wanted to prove the Archbishop culpable, he had recourse to a papal tribunal which would have had the right to call witnesses, to include evidence, and which would have allowed the accused the right to defend himself. The Pope didn't go this route--for reasons only he can know. He chose instead to accept the latae sententiae as proof of the Archbishop's excommunication and schism--when it could provide no such proof of this at all. Such penalties were dependent upon the internal dispositions of the individuals involved.

13. Another belief by those who disagree with the SSPX is that the Pope "imposed" an excommunication or declaration of schism on the SSPX. But he did no such thing. He only gave his opinion about what he believed happened automatically as a result of the consecrations. He was not himself directly involved. Besides, no Pope can impose a declaration of schism unless such a schism actually existed. He can't make something happen, if it never happened.

14. Others claim the Pope is the Supreme Legislator in the Church and may decide what he wants on the matter. But this is only partially true. He is supreme only in the legal, not the moral, sense. He can LEGALLY declare something, but he cannot effect it as a reality unless the individuals were actually guilty. This is because while the Pope is supreme on earth, he is limited by the Divine Law itself. He may not impose a sentence unjustly--which would be the case if he declared in schism individuals who remained loyal to himself but only disobeyed to protect the faith. If he does such an unjust thing, such a decaration would be a nullity.


818 posted on 07/20/2004 6:17:46 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Mike Fieschko

No. But neither has it denied anything. It is silent. But as the argument I supplied explained, the canon law on supplied jurisdiction is liberally interpreted always.


819 posted on 07/20/2004 6:20:11 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Dominick; Mike Fieschko

Abortion cannot be equated with disobedience. Abortion is inherently evil. Disobedience is not.

Abortion is always and everywhere wrong. Disobedience is sometimes good. If a superior tells me to shoot my grandmother and I disobey, I am doing good.


820 posted on 07/20/2004 6:25:17 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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