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Father Zigrang suspended by Bishop Joseph Fiorenza
Christ or Chaos ^ | 15th July 2004 | Dr Thomas Droleskey

Posted on 07/15/2004 6:17:56 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena

Catholics exhibit fidelity to the Tradition of Holy Mother Church in many ways. Each of us has a distinctive, unrepeatable immortal soul that has personal characteristics of its own not shared by anyone else. Not even identical twins are the same in every respect. This plurality of souls in the Mystical Bride of Christ is reflected in the many different communities of men and women religious that have developed over the Church’s history. Each community has its own charism and mission. Ideally, each community of men and women religious should be totally faithful to everything contained in the Deposit of Faith and expressed and protected in the authentic Tradition of the Church. The means of expressing this fidelity, however, will vary from community to community.

What is true of communities of men and women religious is true also of us all, including our priests. Some priests have the patience of Saint Francis de Sales or Saint John Bosco, meek and mild, able to handle the rough seas that beset Holy Mother Church and/or themselves personally with perfect equanimity. Other priests have had the bluntness of St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio, mincing no words in their sermons about the necessity of rooting out sin and the possibility of going to Hell for all eternity. Both St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio were devoted to their role as an alter Christus in the confessional, using that hospital of Divine Mercy to administer the infinite merits of Our Lord’s Most Precious Blood to bring sacramental absolution to those to whom they had preached in blunt terms.

In addition to fidelity, though, there are different ways of expressing courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings. Some Catholics stood up quite directly to the unjust and illicit dictates of the English Parliament, which had been passed at the urging of King Henry VIII, at the time of the Protestant Revolt in England. Others kept their silence for as long as was possible, as was the case with Saint Thomas More, who discharged his mind publicly only after he had been found guilty on the basis of perjured testimony of denying the supremacy of the king as the head of the Church in England. Some priests in the Elizabethan period, such as St. Edmund Campion, almost dared officials to arrest them as they went to different locales to offer Holy Mass or as they took groups to the Tower of London. Other priests went quietly from house to house to offer the Traditional Mass underground as both the civil and ecclesiastical authorities in England used every sort of pressure imaginable to convince holdout “Romans” to go over to Protestantism and worship in the precusor liturgy of our own Novus Ordo Missae. Still other newly ordained priests came over from France, knowing that they might be able to offer only one Mass in England before they were arrested and executed.

The same thing occurred in France 255 years after the arrest and execution of Saints John Fisher and Thomas More. Some priests simply stood up to the agents of the French Revolution. Others, such as Blessed Father William Chaminade, donned disguises as they went from place to place, much as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro did in Mexico prior to his execution at the hands of the Masonic revolutionaries in Mexico on November 23, 1927. Ignatius Cardinal Kung, then the Bishop of Shanghai, China, was hauled before a dog-track stadium in his see city in 1956 before thousands of spectators. The Red Chinese authorities expected him to denounce the pope and thus to save himself from arrest. The brave bishop exclaimed the same thing as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro, “Long live Christ the King,” and was hauled off to spend over thirty years in prison before being released. Oh, yes, there are so many ways for priests to demonstrate their fidelity and courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings.

Well, many bishops and priests who are faithful to the fullness of the Church’s authentic Tradition have been subjected to a unspeakable form of persecution in the past thirty-five to forty years: treachery from within the highest quarters of the Church herself. Men who have held fast to that which was believed always, everywhere and by everyone prior for over 1,900 years found themselves termed as “disobedient,” “schismatic,” “heretical,” and “disloyal” for their resisting novelties that bore no resemblance to Catholicism and a great deal of resemblance to the very things that were fomented by Martin Luther and John Calvin and Thomas Cranmer, things for which Catholics half a millennium ago shed their blood rather than accept. Many priests who have tried to remain faithful to Tradition within the framework of a diocesan or archdiocesan structure have been sent to psychiatric hospitals or penalized by being removed from their pastorates or by being denied pastorates altogether. Others, though, have faced more severe penalties.

Angelus Press, which is run by the Society of Saint Pius X, put out a book earlier this year, Priest, Where is Thy Mass? Mass, Where is Thy Priest?, which discussed the stories of seventeen priests who had decided to offer only the Traditional Latin Mass and to never again offer the Novus Ordo Missae. One of those priests is my good friend, Father Stephen Zigrang, who offered the Traditional Latin Mass in his [now] former parish of Saint Andrew Church in Channelview, Texas, on June 28-29, 2003, telling his parishioners that he would never again offer the new Mass.

As I reported extensively at this time last year, Father Zigrang was placed on a sixty day leave-of-absence by the Bishop of Galveston-Houston, the Most Reverend Joseph Fiorenza, and told to seek psychological counseling, preferably from Father Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R. Father Zigrang took his two month leave of absence, making a retreat at Saint Thomas Aquinas Seminary in Winona, Minnesota, in early August of last year, returning to the Houston area to take up residence in the Society’s Queen of Angels Chapel in Dickinson, Texas. Bishop Fiorenza met with Father Zigrang in early September, seeming at the time to let him stay for a year with the Society while the diocese continued to pay his health insurance premiums. Within days of that early September meeting, however, Fiorenza was threatening to suspend Father Zigrang by the beginning of October if he did not vacate Queen of Angels and return to a diocesan assignment.

October of 2003 came and went. Father Zigrang heard no word from Bishop Fiorenza or the chancery office until he received the following letter, dated Jun 10, 2004:

Dear Father Zigrang:

Once more I appeal to you to cease your association with the Society of St. Pius X and return to your responsibilities as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston

Your continued association with a schismatic group which has severed communion with the Holy Father is confusing and a scandal to many of Christ’s faithful. You are well aware that without appropriate jurisdiction the marriages witnessed and confessions heard by the priests of the St. Society of St. Paul X are invalid and people are being lead to believe otherwise. You are also aware that the Holy See has asked the faithful not to attend Masses celebrated in the Chapels of the Society of St. Pius X.

I plead with you to return by July 1, 2004, to the presbyterate of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston and receive a priestly assignment from me. This letter serves as a penal precept (c. 1319) and is a final canonical warning (c. 1347.1). If I do not hear from you by June 30, 2004, I will impose a just penalty for disobeying a legitimate precept (c. 1371.2). The just penalty may include suspension (c. 133.1), nn 1-2: prohibition of all acts of the power of orders and governance.

I offer this final warning after consultation with the Holy See and will proceed to impose a penalty if you persist in disobedience to a legitimate precept. It is my fervent hope and constant prayer that you not remain out of union with the Holy Father.

Fraternally in Christ,

Joseph A. Fiorenza, Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend R. Troy Gately, Vice Chancellor

Overlooking Bishop Fiorenza’s John Kerry-like gaffe in terming the Society of Saint Pius X the “St. Society of St. Paul X,” the letter reproduced above makes the erroneous assertion that the Society of Saint Pius X is in schism and that they are not in communion with the Holy Father. A series of articles in The Remnant has dealt with this very issue at great length. Fiorenza’s contentions that the marriages witnessed and the confessions heard by the Society of Saint Pius X are invalid also flies in the face of the fact that the Holy See “regularized” the Society of Saint John Mary Vianney in Campos, Brazil, without demanding the convalidation of the marriages their priests had witnesses nor asking that confessions be re-heard. The glaring inconsistency of the canonical rhetoric of Vatican functionaries and their actual practices continues to be lost on Bishop Fiorenza.

Father Zigrang did not respond to Bishop Fiorenza’s June 10 letter. He received another letter, dated July 2, 2004, the contents of which are so explosive as to contain implications for the state of the Church far beyond the case of Father Zigrang and far beyond the boundaries of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston:

Dear Father Zigrang:

With great sadness I inform you that, effective immediately, you are suspended from the celebration of all sacraments, the exercise of governance and all rights attached to the office of pastor (Canon 1333.1, nn 1-2-3).

This action is taken after appropriate canonical warnings (canon 1347) and failure to obey my specific directive that you cease the affiliation with the schismatic Society of St. Pius X and accept an assignment to serve as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston (Canon 1371.2).

I want to repeat what I have said to you in person and in the written canonical warnings, that I prayerfully urge you to not break communion with the Holy Father and cease to be associated with the schism which rejects the liciety of the Novus Ordo Mass, often affirmed by Pope John Paul II. This schism also calls into question the teachings of the Second Vatican Council regarding ecumenism and the enduring validity of the Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel.

Your return to full union with the Church and to the acceptance of an assignment to priestly ministry in the Diocese of Galveston-Houston will be joyfully received as an answer to prayer. May the Holy Spirit lead and guide you to renew the promise of obedience you made on the day of your ordination.

Fraternally in Christ,

Most Reverend Joseph A. Fiorenza Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend Monsignor Frank H. Rossi Chancellor

cc: His Eminence, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, Commissio Ecclesia Dei

Bishop Fiorenza’s July 2, 2004, letter is riddled with errors.

First, The Society of Saint Pius X does not reject the liciety of the Novus Ordo Missae. Its founder, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, criticized the nature of the Novus Ordo and pointed out its inherent harm. That is far different from saying that the Novus Ordo is always and in all instances invalid. Is Bishop Fiorenza claiming that any criticism of the Novus Ordo and efforts to demonstrate how it is a radical departure from Tradition are schismatic acts? Is Father Romano Thommasi, for example, to be taken to task for writing scholarly articles, based on the very minutes of the Consilium, about how Archbishop Annibale Bugnini lied about the true origin of the some constituent elements of the Novus Ordo?

Second, the Society is not, as noted above, in schism, at least not as that phrase was defined by the First Vatican Council. The Society recognizes that the See of Peter is occupied at present by Pope John Paul II. Its priests pray for the Holy Father and for the local bishop in the Canon of the Mass. The Society can be said to be disobedient to the Holy Father’s unjust edicts and commands. The Society of Saint Pius X is not in schism.

Third, Bishop Fiorenza seems to be stating that ecumenism is a de fide dogma of the Catholic Church from which no Catholic may legitimately dissent. If this is his contention, it is he who is grave error. Ecumenism is a pastoral novelty that was specifically condemned by every Pope prior to 1958. Pope Pius XI did so with particular eloquence in Mortalium Animos in 1928. Novelties that are not consonant with the authentic Tradition of the Church bind no one under penalty of sin, no less binds a priest under penalty of canonical suspension. A rejection of ecumenism constitutes in no way a schismatic act.

Fourth, Bishop Fiorenza’s assertion that the “Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel” is enduringly valid is itself heretical. No human being can be saved by a belief in the Mosaic Covenant, which was superceded in its entirety when the curtain was torn in two in the Temple on Good Friday at the moment Our Lord had breathed His last on the Holy Cross. It is a fundamental act of fidelity to the truths of the Holy Faith to resist and to denounce the heretical contention, made in person by Bishop Fiorenza to Father Zigrang last year, that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant. Were the Apostles, including the first pope, Saint Peter, wrong to try to convert the Jews? Was Our Lord joking when He said that a person had no life in him if he did not eat of His Body and drink of His Blood?

Fifth, Bishop Fiorenza has failed repeatedly to take into account Father Zigrang’s aboslute rights under Quo Primum to offer the Immemorial Mass of Tradition without any episcopal approval:

Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever order or by whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us.

We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is to be forced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force–notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemoial prescription–except, however, if of more than two hundred years’ standing. Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this letter or heedlessly to venture to go contrary to this notice of Our permission., statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Should anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

It is apparently the case that Bishop Fiorenza received a “green light,” if you will, to act against Father Zigrang from Dario Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos, who is both the Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy and the President of Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, to whom a copy of the July 2, 2004, suspension letter was sent. Father Zigrang surmises that Bishop Fiorenza brought up the issue of his case during the bishops’ ad limina apostolorum visit in Rome recently. Father believes that Cardinal Hoyos wants to send a signal to priests who might be tempted to follow his lead that Rome will let bishops crack down on them without mercy and without so much as an acknowledgment that Quo Primum actually means what it says. Whether or not the specific “schismatic” acts Father Zigrang is alleged to have committed by being associated with the Society of Saint Pius X at Queen of Angels Church in Dickinson, Texas, were outlined to Cardinal Hoyos by Bishop Fiorenza remains to be seen.

Naturally, the grounds on which Bishop Fiorenza suspended Father Zigrang are beyond the sublime. As my dear wife Sharon noted, “Doesn’t Bishop Fiorenza have a better canon lawyer on his staff than the one who advised him on the grounds of suspending Father Zigrang.” Indeed.

The very fact that Fiorenza could make these incredible claims and believes that he has a good chance of prevailing in Rome speaks volumes about the state of the Church in her human elements at present. Will Rome let the bishops govern unjustly and make erroneous assertions about “schism” as well as heretical claims (that a priest must accept that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant and that ecumenism is a matter of de fide doctrine) with its full assent and approval? Will Rome countenance the same sort of misuse of power by local bishops upon traditional priests in the Twenty-first Century that was visited upon “Romans” by the civil state and the Anglican “church” in England from 1534 to 1729? The answers to these questions are probably self-evident. Putting them down in black and white, though, might help priests who are looking to Rome for some canonical protection for the Traditional Latin Mass to come to realize that they wait in vain for help from the Holy See, where the Vicar of Christ occupies himself at present with the writing of a book about existentialism!

There will be further updates on this matter as events warrant. Father Zigrang is weighing his options as to how to respond to the allegations contained in Bishop Fiorenza’s letter of suspension, understanding that the answers provided by the Holy See will have implications of obviously tremendous gravity. Given the intellectual dishonesty that exists in Rome at present, Father Zigrang’s case may only be decided on the technical grounds of “obedience” to his bishop, ignoring all of the other issues, including the rights of all priests under Quo Primum offer the Traditional Latin Mass without approval and their rights to never be forced to offer Holy Mass according to any other form.

To force Rome to act on what it might otherwise avoid, perhaps it might be wise for someone to bring a canonical denunciation of Bishop Fiorenza for his contentions about ecumenism and the “enduring validity” of the Mosaic Covenant, spelling out in chapter and verse how these things have been condemned in the history of the Church. Then again, Fiorenza could “defend” himself by simply pointing to the Pope himself, which is precisely why this matter has such grave implications. This matter is certain to be explored in great detail in the weeks and months ahead by competent canonists and by theologians who understand the authentic Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Father Zigrang noted the following in an e-mail to me dated July 14, 2004:

I examined canon 1371.2 (the canon that the Bishop says warrants my suspension), checking a good commentary, the disobedience of an Ordinary's legitimate precept may warrant a just penalty but not weighty enough to warrant a censure (e.g. suspension). I think this point may have been missed by the Bishop's hired canon lawyer, when the Bishop was weighing his options about what to do with one of his wayward priests. As I said to you before, the Bishop has a history of not suspending priests, even those who commit crimes beyond mere disobedience. Although lately I've been told he recently suspended a priest who attempted marriage with one of his parishioners. This was done about the time my suspension was in the works.

Our Lady, Queen of the Angels, pray for Father Zigrang.

Our Lady, Help of Christians, pray for all priests in Father Zigrang’s situation so that they will be aided by their seeking refuge in you in their time of persecution and trial.


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To: Dominick
I don't see a problem watching other faiths pray at Assisi.

You don't have a problem with those, who deny Christ, using a Catholic facility to pray to cows? What a surprise - neither does John Paul II.

But God forbid allowing a Catholic priest to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at a Catholic Church according to the missal of 1962 - that will not be tolerated!

701 posted on 07/19/2004 3:22:30 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Grey Ghost II

LMBO. That's the second time today you've cracked me up.


702 posted on 07/19/2004 3:29:23 PM PDT by AAABEST (Lord have mercy on us)
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To: Grey Ghost II
You don't have a problem with those, who deny Christ, using a Catholic facility to pray to cows?

Seriously what should one do, cover them in tar? Perhaps I should smite them? I said I don't like them praying in a Church, however, the act of public Prayer isn't something we should be screaming over. The indifferent-ism that people as a whole have is far far more damaging.

But God forbid allowing a Catholic priest to offer the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass at a Catholic Church according to the missal of 1962 - that will not be tolerated!

Guess what sunshine, they do all the time, and they did for a long time. An indult isn't available some places be cause the Tridentine rite gets a bad name from sedavacanists, the SSPX, and others who think that can out-Catholic the Bishop. You get more flies with Honey, than vinegar, and many of you are half-full of vinegar.

You can't pray the Tridentine rite with permission if you don't agree that the Novus Ordo is valid and those who go to Mass with the Novus Ordo are good Catholics as well. Many of you think that you can claim it is valid but insufficient, and that is not correct. It is either a Mass or it is not.
703 posted on 07/19/2004 3:32:55 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Dominick
An indult isn't available some places be cause the Tridentine rite gets a bad name from sedavacanists, the SSPX, and others who think that can out-Catholic the Bishop.

Why in the world would someone punish those who long for the indult because of the sedevacantists and SSPXers? Are you saying the bishops discriminate against good, faithful Catholics out of spite? I don't believe it, never.

704 posted on 07/19/2004 3:37:32 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Dominick; Grey Ghost II
The Pope does not wear the Church on his back.

No, he does not. But he does wear the mark of Shiva on his forehead.

705 posted on 07/19/2004 3:44:10 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
No, he does not. But he does wear the mark of Shiva on his forehead.

Silly you. It's not the mark of Shiva. It was Ash Wednesday and everybody was participating - even non-Catholics. It was fun!

706 posted on 07/19/2004 3:47:07 PM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Land of the Irish
Nope it was not at all

Pope and a traditional Indian Greeting

It is a different culture, and unfortunately the SSPX sees fit to twist racism, and ignorance to the purposes it sees fit. Perhaps this is a good faith mistake, but there are so many stories like this.

Pope secretly Worships Flying Monkey!
Batboy is Made a Cardinal!
Elvis Was Held in Vatican Basement for Satanic Genetic Experiments

Back to the Aarti.

From a decent article on the Aarti, and a comment from Archbishop Foley
John Paul II receives the Hindu Mark of Shiva by a Hindu priestess; a sign that identifies one as a worshipper of the Hindu goddess Shiva. The woman in question was not a Hindu priestess but a Catholic, who gave the pope a traditional Indian greeting known as Aarti. The photograph of this incident is explained by Archbishop John P. Foley, president of the Pontifical Council for Social Communications, in a letter dated November 22, 1994:

Indian Catholics . . . use 'Aarti' when a child returns home after receiving First Holy Communion, and when a newly married couple are received by their respective families. Nowadays, 'Aarti' is often performed to greet the principal celebrant at an important liturgical event, as it was on the occasion shown in the photograph. On such occasions, 'Aarti' is usually offered by a Catholic married lady, and certainly not by a 'priestess of Shiva' as has been alleged. Use of the 'Aarti' ceremonial by Indian Catholics is no more the worship of a heathen deity than is the decoration of a Christmas tree by American Christians a return to the pagan rituals of Northern Europe


We can tolerate an Indian Handshake at the Mass. Just as we can incorporate the Easter Egg hunt on Saturday before Easter for the children. This is pretty old news anyway.
707 posted on 07/19/2004 4:01:45 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Dominick
Spin, baby, spin. You guys are worse than the Clintonites.

Since when has a woman anointed a Catholic prelate, let alone a Pope, on his forehead?

The Pope said, "It is as it was", regarding the movie "The Passion of the Christ". Rome even gave Icon permission to quote it in their promotions. Then the Vatican realized it upset the Jews, who undoubtedly were inspired by the Jewish militant and Catholic hater, Abe Foxman. Not only that, a Jewish delegation was due to visit the Vatican the next week.

So then the Vatican lied and said the Pope never said, "It is as it was." It went even so far to say that even if the Pope said, "It is as it was", it was not intended for public knowledge. Since when is the Vicar of Christ's views on the Cruxificion of Christ not for public knowledge!

I bet you and Bill Clinton are still the only persons on earth who still thinks he never had sex with Monica Lewinsky. Is you birth name Chelsea?

(By the way the last Novus Ordo Mass that I went to on a Ash Wednesday, Frances Kissling dispensed the ashes while the priest sat on his rump and sang "Here I am, Lord." The EEM's were John Kerry, Ted Kennedy, and Tom Daschle. The communion hosts were nacho cheese Doritos.)

708 posted on 07/19/2004 4:42:57 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
If my thoughts about Clinton were germane to this issue, I would share them.

Yet again, when someone puts a false traditionalist in the corner, they scream "SHIVA!" or "KORAN KISSER!" like a girlie-man.

The Shiva story has a reasonable explanation, it isn't an anointing, it is a greeting like a handshake. Did you know Indians lift a woman into the air as a sign of reverence, it isn't religious at all.

In the case of this story, it involves race baiting, latent paganism, a woman priest, and the Goddess of Death. Did anyone ask her if she worshiped Shiva? Did anyone ask a Indian Catholic what she was doing? They are just as Catholic as anyone in Union with Rome, and I am sure they would answer. I am also knowledgeable that there in India, in the front lines of the fight, most defend the Faith with all the fervor of any Catholic.

No! Nobody asked, it would interfere with the smear job. Why confuse a photo with the story.

A pious forgery is indeed a forgery. It goes further to show the character of some of the people who are outside the Church, who are seeking to destroy it with the appearance of "true orthodoxy". You can't be faithful to the Church without the Pope, and you can't be Catholic without membership in the Church.
709 posted on 07/19/2004 5:02:37 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Dominick

"Your smugness leaves me cold. Is that gleee with another twist of the SSPX dagger in the back of the Church?"

The smug one is yourself. What makes what you say a mockery is the way you accept anything but the SSPX--including the desecrations at Assisi and Fatima. You have no problem with Catholics praying alongside witchdoctors--so long as they don't attend the ancient Mass celebrated by SSPX priests. What hypocrisy! If you had a modicum of honesty, you'd recognize the double-standard instead of casting slurs.

Take another look at Assisi. Those were Catholic altars heathens were praying to their gods at. Then take another look at the first commandment: I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt not have strange gods before me. How you can pass this off as just another papal peccadillo is beyond me. This was the pope who did this--hugging even Voodoo priests all the while as was giving the back of his hand to the Archbishop. Something very wrong there.



710 posted on 07/19/2004 5:04:17 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Dominick; ultima ratio; Grey Ghost II
From a decent article on the Aarti, and a comment from Archbishop Foley

I'd advise you to check your sources before you post your usual garbage.

Foley's an apologist for Pope's New World Order: "There is today a "growing sense of international solidarity" that offers the United Nations system in particular "a unique opportunity to contribute to the globalization of solidarity by serving as a meeting place for states and civil society and as a convergence of the varied interests and needs..." February 22, 2002

No mention of conversion, just convergence.

You can go follow Foley's and Kofi's UN, as for me, I choose to follow Christ.

711 posted on 07/19/2004 5:11:33 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: ultima ratio
The smug one is yourself. What makes what you say a mockery is the way you accept anything but the SSPX--including the desecrations at Assisi and Fatima. You have no problem with Catholics praying alongside witchdoctors--so long as they don't attend the ancient Mass celebrated by SSPX priests. What hypocrisy! If you had a modicum of honesty, you'd recognize the double-standard instead of casting slurs.

I guess we have slurs to go around. Fatima wasn't the popes doing, but Assisi was. Assisi was not in the Church perse, and it was not a public display. He wasn't there to spread Animism, he was there to quell a storm from those groups.

You must read the papers, plenty of senseless violence. Hindu mobs are slaughtering Muslim ones. A Hindu killed a Catholic Missionary. In Rwanda the Watusi and Wahutu first killed any Catholics they could, even of their own minority, before each other.

We can all agree that the method of kill all those who do no accept Baptism is a affront to God. I know about the false stories that are told now about Conquistadors in the New World. I also know the true stories about the Jesuits in Quebec and New York.

Perhaps by bringing them together he can start a dialog, not help spread the faith from false Gods. Of course many won't let a few facts or reason get in the was of a good sensation.
712 posted on 07/19/2004 5:14:55 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Dominick
They are just as Catholic as anyone in Union with Rome

Like Kasper, Mahoney, Weakland, Bernadin, Hubbard, Paul Shanley and John Geoghan?

You set very low standards. Ever heard of the Holy Martyrs and Saints? They are my standards.

713 posted on 07/19/2004 5:20:45 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: gbcdoj

No. You are taking those phrases out of context. Here is another citation from the same conference:

"The liturgical reform, in its concrete realization, has distanced itself even more from its origin. The result has not been a reanimation, but devastation. In place of the liturgy, fruit of a continual development, they have placed a fabricated liturgy. They have deserted a vital process of growth and becoming in order to substitute a fabrication. They did not want to continue the development, the organic maturing of something living through the centuries, and tehy replaced it, in the manner of technical production, by a fabrication, a banal product of the moment."

That's the Novus Ordo he's talking about, not theories. Here's another representative passage, regarding the new liturgical fashion of eliminating kneelers and kneeling:

"It well may be that kneeling is alien to modern culture--insofar as it is a culture, for this culture has turned away from the faith and no longer knows the One before whom kneeling is the right, indeed the intrinsically necessary gesture. The man who learns to believe learns also to kneel, and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered."

Here he is on versus populi:

"Today celebration versus populi really does look like the characteristic fruit of Vatican II's liturgical renewal. In fact it is the most conspicuous consequence of a reordering that not only signifies a new external arrangement of the places dedicated to the liturgy, but also brings with it a new idea of the essence of the liturgy--the liturgy as a communal meal."

And again:

"A common turning to the east during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential. This is not a case of something accidental, but of what is essential. Looking at the priest has no importance. What matters is looking together at the Lord. It is not now a question of dialogue but of common worship."

He's not talking about theories--he's talking about the Novus Ordo liturgy--which was what the conference was all about. You are focusing on phrases. You need to understand the whole thrust of his strong criticism at Fontgombault--which included his assertion that the new liturgy violated Trent.


714 posted on 07/19/2004 5:23:27 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Dominick; ultima ratio
Hindu mobs are slaughtering Muslim ones. A Hindu killed a Catholic Missionary. In Rwanda the Watusi and Wahutu first killed any Catholics they could, even of their own minority, before each other.

Ahhh! The fruits of VC II, and Assisi I & II, in particular.

715 posted on 07/19/2004 5:24:06 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Land of the Irish
Foley's an apologist for Pope's New World Order

You can go follow Foley's and Kofi's UN, as for me, I choose to follow Christ.

DODGE! WEAVE!

Not a word about the facts.

On Google, I got a quick education on this practice, and indeed it is pretty common among Indian Catholics. I can assume if you don't, you don't have any use for non-european Catholics. It is a shame, they are Catholic too.
716 posted on 07/19/2004 5:24:51 PM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: gbcdoj

Is your posting of this photo supposed to reassure us? Hey, if the Indian lady had brought along a lamp, I'm pretty sure the Pope would have held it. As it is, it provides cold comfort to know that the Supreme Pontiff of the Catholic Church didn't hold up the lamp--but cooperated in every other way. I suppose we should be grateful he didn't genuflect.


717 posted on 07/19/2004 5:33:33 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: Dominick
I got a quick education on this practice, and indeed it is pretty common among Indian Catholics.

What's your point? Artificial contraception is pretty common among American Catholics. Disdain for the need of the Sacrament of Confession is also pretty common amongst them.

You obviously believe in "the majority rules", e.g. Indian Catholics, UN, etc.

Let me give you a quick edcuation, Christ's apostles were a minority.

718 posted on 07/19/2004 5:36:12 PM PDT by Land of the Irish
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To: Dominick

I have absolutely no disdain for anyone here--just those like yourself who like to dish it out but can't stand being answered in kind. If you feel disdained, then don't cast slurs yourself. In fact, I have no sense of superiority whatsoever and have said many many times I consider myself just another sinner. But I'm still a Catholic and so is my family--and I won't let anyone suggest otherwise--which means you.


719 posted on 07/19/2004 5:38:35 PM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
I certainly don’t need to say that I am not one of the "numerous Catholics" who consider it the most appalling horror and a damnable impiety to speak of the sacrifice of the Mass. It goes without saying that the writer did not mention my book on the spirit of the liturgy, which analyses the idea of sacrifice in detail. His diagnosis remains dismaying. Is it true? I do not know these numerous Catholics who consider it a damnable impiety to understand the Eucharist as a sacrifice. The second, more circumspect, diagnosis according to which the sacrifice of the Mass is open to misunderstandings is, on the other hand, easily shown to be correct. Even if one leaves to one side the first affirmation of the writer as a rhetorical exaggeration, there remains a troubling problem, which we should face up to. A sizable party of catholic liturgists seems to have practically arrived at the conclusion that Luther, rather than Trent, was substantially right in the sixteenth century debate; one can detect much the same position in the post conciliar discussions on the Priesthood.The great historian of the Council of Trent, Hubert Jedin, pointed this out in 1975, in the preface to the last volume of his history of the Council of Trent: "The attentive reader ... in reading this will not be less dismayed than the author, when he realises that many of the things - in fact almost everything – that disturbed the men of the past is being put forward anew today." It is only against this background of the effective denial of the authority of Trent, that the bitterness of the struggle against allowing the celebration of Mass according to the 1962 Missal, after the liturgical reform, can be understood. The possibility of so celebrating constitutes the strongest, and thus (for them) the most intolerable contradiction of the opinion of those who believe that the faith in the Eucharist formulated by Trent has lost its value.

It would be easy to gather proofs to support this statement of the position. I leave aside the extreme liturgical theology of Harald Schützeichel, who departs completely from catholic dogma and expounds, for example, the bold assertion that it was only in the Middle Ages that the idea of the Real Presence was invented. A modern liturgist such as David N. Power tells us that through the course of history, not only the manner in which a truth is expressed, but also the content of what is expressed, can lose its meaning. He links his theory in concrete terms with the statements of Trent. Theodore Schnitker tells us that an up-to-date liturgy includes both a different expression of the faith and theological changes. Moreover, according to him, there are theologians, at least in the circles of the Roman Church and of her liturgy, who have not yet grasped the full import of the transformations put forward by the liturgical reform in the area of the doctrine of the faith. R. Meßner’s certainly respectable work on the reform of the Mass carried out by Martin Luther, and on the Eucharist in the early Church, which contains many interesting ideas, arrives nonetheless at the conclusion that the early Church was better understood by Luther than by the Council of Trent.

The serious nature of these theories comes from the fact that frequently they pass immediately into practice. The thesis according to which it is the community itself which is the subject of the liturgy, serves as an authorization to manipulate the liturgy according to each individual’s  understanding of it. So-called new discoveries and the forms which follow from them, are diffused with an astonishing rapidity and with a degree of conformity which has long ceased to exist where the norms of ecclesiastical authority are concerned. Theories, in the area of the liturgy, are transformed very rapidly today into practice, and practice, in turn, creates or destroys ways of behaving and thinking.

Look at the middle paragraph - that which destroys "ways of behaving and thinking" are the theories that Martin Luther was right instead of Trent. These theories are soundly rejected in the Novus Ordo, which is a true sacrificial liturgy, and also by the GIRM which declares that the NO is a "witness to [the] unchanged faith" of Trent.

I'm not disputing that the Cardinal isn't thrilled with all the allowed changes. But you can't make him say that the NO is evil and destroys the faith - for him to say such a thing while using the Novus Ordo himself would be ridiculous.

720 posted on 07/19/2004 5:43:29 PM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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