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Father Zigrang suspended by Bishop Joseph Fiorenza
Christ or Chaos ^ | 15th July 2004 | Dr Thomas Droleskey

Posted on 07/15/2004 6:17:56 PM PDT by AskStPhilomena

Catholics exhibit fidelity to the Tradition of Holy Mother Church in many ways. Each of us has a distinctive, unrepeatable immortal soul that has personal characteristics of its own not shared by anyone else. Not even identical twins are the same in every respect. This plurality of souls in the Mystical Bride of Christ is reflected in the many different communities of men and women religious that have developed over the Church’s history. Each community has its own charism and mission. Ideally, each community of men and women religious should be totally faithful to everything contained in the Deposit of Faith and expressed and protected in the authentic Tradition of the Church. The means of expressing this fidelity, however, will vary from community to community.

What is true of communities of men and women religious is true also of us all, including our priests. Some priests have the patience of Saint Francis de Sales or Saint John Bosco, meek and mild, able to handle the rough seas that beset Holy Mother Church and/or themselves personally with perfect equanimity. Other priests have had the bluntness of St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio, mincing no words in their sermons about the necessity of rooting out sin and the possibility of going to Hell for all eternity. Both St. John Mary Vianney and St. Padre Pio were devoted to their role as an alter Christus in the confessional, using that hospital of Divine Mercy to administer the infinite merits of Our Lord’s Most Precious Blood to bring sacramental absolution to those to whom they had preached in blunt terms.

In addition to fidelity, though, there are different ways of expressing courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings. Some Catholics stood up quite directly to the unjust and illicit dictates of the English Parliament, which had been passed at the urging of King Henry VIII, at the time of the Protestant Revolt in England. Others kept their silence for as long as was possible, as was the case with Saint Thomas More, who discharged his mind publicly only after he had been found guilty on the basis of perjured testimony of denying the supremacy of the king as the head of the Church in England. Some priests in the Elizabethan period, such as St. Edmund Campion, almost dared officials to arrest them as they went to different locales to offer Holy Mass or as they took groups to the Tower of London. Other priests went quietly from house to house to offer the Traditional Mass underground as both the civil and ecclesiastical authorities in England used every sort of pressure imaginable to convince holdout “Romans” to go over to Protestantism and worship in the precusor liturgy of our own Novus Ordo Missae. Still other newly ordained priests came over from France, knowing that they might be able to offer only one Mass in England before they were arrested and executed.

The same thing occurred in France 255 years after the arrest and execution of Saints John Fisher and Thomas More. Some priests simply stood up to the agents of the French Revolution. Others, such as Blessed Father William Chaminade, donned disguises as they went from place to place, much as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro did in Mexico prior to his execution at the hands of the Masonic revolutionaries in Mexico on November 23, 1927. Ignatius Cardinal Kung, then the Bishop of Shanghai, China, was hauled before a dog-track stadium in his see city in 1956 before thousands of spectators. The Red Chinese authorities expected him to denounce the pope and thus to save himself from arrest. The brave bishop exclaimed the same thing as Blessed Padre Miguel Augustin Pro, “Long live Christ the King,” and was hauled off to spend over thirty years in prison before being released. Oh, yes, there are so many ways for priests to demonstrate their fidelity and courage in the midst of persecutions and sufferings.

Well, many bishops and priests who are faithful to the fullness of the Church’s authentic Tradition have been subjected to a unspeakable form of persecution in the past thirty-five to forty years: treachery from within the highest quarters of the Church herself. Men who have held fast to that which was believed always, everywhere and by everyone prior for over 1,900 years found themselves termed as “disobedient,” “schismatic,” “heretical,” and “disloyal” for their resisting novelties that bore no resemblance to Catholicism and a great deal of resemblance to the very things that were fomented by Martin Luther and John Calvin and Thomas Cranmer, things for which Catholics half a millennium ago shed their blood rather than accept. Many priests who have tried to remain faithful to Tradition within the framework of a diocesan or archdiocesan structure have been sent to psychiatric hospitals or penalized by being removed from their pastorates or by being denied pastorates altogether. Others, though, have faced more severe penalties.

Angelus Press, which is run by the Society of Saint Pius X, put out a book earlier this year, Priest, Where is Thy Mass? Mass, Where is Thy Priest?, which discussed the stories of seventeen priests who had decided to offer only the Traditional Latin Mass and to never again offer the Novus Ordo Missae. One of those priests is my good friend, Father Stephen Zigrang, who offered the Traditional Latin Mass in his [now] former parish of Saint Andrew Church in Channelview, Texas, on June 28-29, 2003, telling his parishioners that he would never again offer the new Mass.

As I reported extensively at this time last year, Father Zigrang was placed on a sixty day leave-of-absence by the Bishop of Galveston-Houston, the Most Reverend Joseph Fiorenza, and told to seek psychological counseling, preferably from Father Benedict Groeschel, C.F.R. Father Zigrang took his two month leave of absence, making a retreat at Saint Thomas Aquinas Seminary in Winona, Minnesota, in early August of last year, returning to the Houston area to take up residence in the Society’s Queen of Angels Chapel in Dickinson, Texas. Bishop Fiorenza met with Father Zigrang in early September, seeming at the time to let him stay for a year with the Society while the diocese continued to pay his health insurance premiums. Within days of that early September meeting, however, Fiorenza was threatening to suspend Father Zigrang by the beginning of October if he did not vacate Queen of Angels and return to a diocesan assignment.

October of 2003 came and went. Father Zigrang heard no word from Bishop Fiorenza or the chancery office until he received the following letter, dated Jun 10, 2004:

Dear Father Zigrang:

Once more I appeal to you to cease your association with the Society of St. Pius X and return to your responsibilities as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston

Your continued association with a schismatic group which has severed communion with the Holy Father is confusing and a scandal to many of Christ’s faithful. You are well aware that without appropriate jurisdiction the marriages witnessed and confessions heard by the priests of the St. Society of St. Paul X are invalid and people are being lead to believe otherwise. You are also aware that the Holy See has asked the faithful not to attend Masses celebrated in the Chapels of the Society of St. Pius X.

I plead with you to return by July 1, 2004, to the presbyterate of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston and receive a priestly assignment from me. This letter serves as a penal precept (c. 1319) and is a final canonical warning (c. 1347.1). If I do not hear from you by June 30, 2004, I will impose a just penalty for disobeying a legitimate precept (c. 1371.2). The just penalty may include suspension (c. 133.1), nn 1-2: prohibition of all acts of the power of orders and governance.

I offer this final warning after consultation with the Holy See and will proceed to impose a penalty if you persist in disobedience to a legitimate precept. It is my fervent hope and constant prayer that you not remain out of union with the Holy Father.

Fraternally in Christ,

Joseph A. Fiorenza, Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend R. Troy Gately, Vice Chancellor

Overlooking Bishop Fiorenza’s John Kerry-like gaffe in terming the Society of Saint Pius X the “St. Society of St. Paul X,” the letter reproduced above makes the erroneous assertion that the Society of Saint Pius X is in schism and that they are not in communion with the Holy Father. A series of articles in The Remnant has dealt with this very issue at great length. Fiorenza’s contentions that the marriages witnessed and the confessions heard by the Society of Saint Pius X are invalid also flies in the face of the fact that the Holy See “regularized” the Society of Saint John Mary Vianney in Campos, Brazil, without demanding the convalidation of the marriages their priests had witnesses nor asking that confessions be re-heard. The glaring inconsistency of the canonical rhetoric of Vatican functionaries and their actual practices continues to be lost on Bishop Fiorenza.

Father Zigrang did not respond to Bishop Fiorenza’s June 10 letter. He received another letter, dated July 2, 2004, the contents of which are so explosive as to contain implications for the state of the Church far beyond the case of Father Zigrang and far beyond the boundaries of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston:

Dear Father Zigrang:

With great sadness I inform you that, effective immediately, you are suspended from the celebration of all sacraments, the exercise of governance and all rights attached to the office of pastor (Canon 1333.1, nn 1-2-3).

This action is taken after appropriate canonical warnings (canon 1347) and failure to obey my specific directive that you cease the affiliation with the schismatic Society of St. Pius X and accept an assignment to serve as a priest of the Diocese of Galveston-Houston (Canon 1371.2).

I want to repeat what I have said to you in person and in the written canonical warnings, that I prayerfully urge you to not break communion with the Holy Father and cease to be associated with the schism which rejects the liciety of the Novus Ordo Mass, often affirmed by Pope John Paul II. This schism also calls into question the teachings of the Second Vatican Council regarding ecumenism and the enduring validity of the Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel.

Your return to full union with the Church and to the acceptance of an assignment to priestly ministry in the Diocese of Galveston-Houston will be joyfully received as an answer to prayer. May the Holy Spirit lead and guide you to renew the promise of obedience you made on the day of your ordination.

Fraternally in Christ,

Most Reverend Joseph A. Fiorenza Bishop of Galveston-Houston

Reverend Monsignor Frank H. Rossi Chancellor

cc: His Eminence, Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, Commissio Ecclesia Dei

Bishop Fiorenza’s July 2, 2004, letter is riddled with errors.

First, The Society of Saint Pius X does not reject the liciety of the Novus Ordo Missae. Its founder, the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, criticized the nature of the Novus Ordo and pointed out its inherent harm. That is far different from saying that the Novus Ordo is always and in all instances invalid. Is Bishop Fiorenza claiming that any criticism of the Novus Ordo and efforts to demonstrate how it is a radical departure from Tradition are schismatic acts? Is Father Romano Thommasi, for example, to be taken to task for writing scholarly articles, based on the very minutes of the Consilium, about how Archbishop Annibale Bugnini lied about the true origin of the some constituent elements of the Novus Ordo?

Second, the Society is not, as noted above, in schism, at least not as that phrase was defined by the First Vatican Council. The Society recognizes that the See of Peter is occupied at present by Pope John Paul II. Its priests pray for the Holy Father and for the local bishop in the Canon of the Mass. The Society can be said to be disobedient to the Holy Father’s unjust edicts and commands. The Society of Saint Pius X is not in schism.

Third, Bishop Fiorenza seems to be stating that ecumenism is a de fide dogma of the Catholic Church from which no Catholic may legitimately dissent. If this is his contention, it is he who is grave error. Ecumenism is a pastoral novelty that was specifically condemned by every Pope prior to 1958. Pope Pius XI did so with particular eloquence in Mortalium Animos in 1928. Novelties that are not consonant with the authentic Tradition of the Church bind no one under penalty of sin, no less binds a priest under penalty of canonical suspension. A rejection of ecumenism constitutes in no way a schismatic act.

Fourth, Bishop Fiorenza’s assertion that the “Old Testament covenant God established with the people of Israel” is enduringly valid is itself heretical. No human being can be saved by a belief in the Mosaic Covenant, which was superceded in its entirety when the curtain was torn in two in the Temple on Good Friday at the moment Our Lord had breathed His last on the Holy Cross. It is a fundamental act of fidelity to the truths of the Holy Faith to resist and to denounce the heretical contention, made in person by Bishop Fiorenza to Father Zigrang last year, that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant. Were the Apostles, including the first pope, Saint Peter, wrong to try to convert the Jews? Was Our Lord joking when He said that a person had no life in him if he did not eat of His Body and drink of His Blood?

Fifth, Bishop Fiorenza has failed repeatedly to take into account Father Zigrang’s aboslute rights under Quo Primum to offer the Immemorial Mass of Tradition without any episcopal approval:

Furthermore, by these presents [this law], in virtue of Our Apostolic authority, We grant and concede in perpetuity that, for the chanting or reading of the Mass in any church whatsoever, this Missal is hereafter to be followed absolutely, without any scruple of conscience or fear of incurring any penalty, judgment, or censure, and may freely and lawfully be used. Nor are superiors, administrators, canons, chaplains, and other secular priests, or religious, of whatever order or by whatever title designated, obliged to celebrate the Mass otherwise than as enjoined by Us.

We likewise declare and ordain that no one whosoever is to be forced to alter this Missal, and that this present document cannot be revoked or modified, but remain always valid and retain its full force–notwithstanding the previous constitutions and decrees of the Holy See, as well as any general or special constitutions or edicts of provincial or synodal councils, and notwithstanding the practice and custom of the aforesaid churches, established by long and immemoial prescription–except, however, if of more than two hundred years’ standing. Therefore, no one whosoever is permitted to alter this letter or heedlessly to venture to go contrary to this notice of Our permission., statute, ordinance, command, precept, grant, indult, declaration, will, decree, and prohibition. Should anyone, however, presume to commit such an act, he should know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.

It is apparently the case that Bishop Fiorenza received a “green light,” if you will, to act against Father Zigrang from Dario Cardinal Castrillion Hoyos, who is both the Prefect of the Congregation for the Clergy and the President of Pontifical Commission Ecclesia Dei, to whom a copy of the July 2, 2004, suspension letter was sent. Father Zigrang surmises that Bishop Fiorenza brought up the issue of his case during the bishops’ ad limina apostolorum visit in Rome recently. Father believes that Cardinal Hoyos wants to send a signal to priests who might be tempted to follow his lead that Rome will let bishops crack down on them without mercy and without so much as an acknowledgment that Quo Primum actually means what it says. Whether or not the specific “schismatic” acts Father Zigrang is alleged to have committed by being associated with the Society of Saint Pius X at Queen of Angels Church in Dickinson, Texas, were outlined to Cardinal Hoyos by Bishop Fiorenza remains to be seen.

Naturally, the grounds on which Bishop Fiorenza suspended Father Zigrang are beyond the sublime. As my dear wife Sharon noted, “Doesn’t Bishop Fiorenza have a better canon lawyer on his staff than the one who advised him on the grounds of suspending Father Zigrang.” Indeed.

The very fact that Fiorenza could make these incredible claims and believes that he has a good chance of prevailing in Rome speaks volumes about the state of the Church in her human elements at present. Will Rome let the bishops govern unjustly and make erroneous assertions about “schism” as well as heretical claims (that a priest must accept that Jews are saved by the Mosaic Covenant and that ecumenism is a matter of de fide doctrine) with its full assent and approval? Will Rome countenance the same sort of misuse of power by local bishops upon traditional priests in the Twenty-first Century that was visited upon “Romans” by the civil state and the Anglican “church” in England from 1534 to 1729? The answers to these questions are probably self-evident. Putting them down in black and white, though, might help priests who are looking to Rome for some canonical protection for the Traditional Latin Mass to come to realize that they wait in vain for help from the Holy See, where the Vicar of Christ occupies himself at present with the writing of a book about existentialism!

There will be further updates on this matter as events warrant. Father Zigrang is weighing his options as to how to respond to the allegations contained in Bishop Fiorenza’s letter of suspension, understanding that the answers provided by the Holy See will have implications of obviously tremendous gravity. Given the intellectual dishonesty that exists in Rome at present, Father Zigrang’s case may only be decided on the technical grounds of “obedience” to his bishop, ignoring all of the other issues, including the rights of all priests under Quo Primum offer the Traditional Latin Mass without approval and their rights to never be forced to offer Holy Mass according to any other form.

To force Rome to act on what it might otherwise avoid, perhaps it might be wise for someone to bring a canonical denunciation of Bishop Fiorenza for his contentions about ecumenism and the “enduring validity” of the Mosaic Covenant, spelling out in chapter and verse how these things have been condemned in the history of the Church. Then again, Fiorenza could “defend” himself by simply pointing to the Pope himself, which is precisely why this matter has such grave implications. This matter is certain to be explored in great detail in the weeks and months ahead by competent canonists and by theologians who understand the authentic Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Father Zigrang noted the following in an e-mail to me dated July 14, 2004:

I examined canon 1371.2 (the canon that the Bishop says warrants my suspension), checking a good commentary, the disobedience of an Ordinary's legitimate precept may warrant a just penalty but not weighty enough to warrant a censure (e.g. suspension). I think this point may have been missed by the Bishop's hired canon lawyer, when the Bishop was weighing his options about what to do with one of his wayward priests. As I said to you before, the Bishop has a history of not suspending priests, even those who commit crimes beyond mere disobedience. Although lately I've been told he recently suspended a priest who attempted marriage with one of his parishioners. This was done about the time my suspension was in the works.

Our Lady, Queen of the Angels, pray for Father Zigrang.

Our Lady, Help of Christians, pray for all priests in Father Zigrang’s situation so that they will be aided by their seeking refuge in you in their time of persecution and trial.


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To: gbcdoj; sinkspur; ultima ratio
Of course he did! "hotels, means of transport, the immense tents which will be set up for the ceremony, have all been rented".

Too bad it couldn't have been held in a Church, as is TRADITIONAL.

Of course considering it was to be a first-rate Circus featuring such clowns as Fr. Williamson and of course Bishop Castro de Mayer waltzing down the "aisle" pranting "we have no Pope", perhaps the venue of a Big-Top was appropriate.

641 posted on 07/19/2004 5:34:23 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: gbcdoj
Where's evidence of the complete and assiduous attachement?
642 posted on 07/19/2004 5:43:07 AM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
So on the bright side, UR is an American Patriot,as opposed the treasonous French jackals we have proclaiming themselves the true remnant of the Catholic Church who run the SSPX?

Funny, when I was Confirmed, the bishop said I was a soldier of Christ not the New World Order.

643 posted on 07/19/2004 5:45:30 AM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: ultima ratio; gbcdoj; sinkspur

The Novus Ordo has mostly the same Secrets as the Gregorian Missal and Tridentine Missal. Some are from other ancient Missals. See here, which includes, sources and accurate translations:

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Parthenon/8881/liturgy/prayers/prayers.html

If the propitiary nature was sufficiently demonstrated by the Secret in the Gregorian Missal, than the same is certainly good enough for the Novus Ordo too.


644 posted on 07/19/2004 5:45:55 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: ultima ratio
The Pope commanded the Archbishop not to consecrate in order to destroy the traditional Mass. This was bad.

You stretch credulity here when the Pope was trying to negotiate a regularization of the SSPX situation, including the granting of a new Bishop. Also when the results of the consecrations were the approval of a number of traditionalist groups to work within the Church to augment the already approved 1984 norms for continuing to use the 1962 Missal.

645 posted on 07/19/2004 5:49:25 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: ultima ratio

How can a "sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving" be made at the hands of the Priest?


646 posted on 07/19/2004 5:51:09 AM PDT by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: ultima ratio
Sinky, you're out of your depth.

LOL!! And Lefebvre was so transparent in his rush to consecration.

647 posted on 07/19/2004 5:53:52 AM PDT by sinkspur (There's no problem on the inside of a kid that the outside of a dog can't cure.)
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To: Maximilian

You're getting more and more dishonest. You've changed from "interfaith services" and "exchanging pulpits" to having get togethter and talk sessions with protestant neighbors. I used to think better of you ... guess I was wrong.


648 posted on 07/19/2004 6:52:55 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Grey Ghost II

The post is NOT disingenous, and it doesn't deal with the twaddle and feint/dodge garbage you cite.


649 posted on 07/19/2004 6:54:55 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: Grey Ghost II; gbcdoj
Where's evidence of the complete and assiduous attachement?

Oh, I dunno. Maybe 15,000 posts flailing away at the Pope, the Curia, the NO Mass,

...and far more seriously, all those posts ALSO chip away at the Faith of other Catholics who don't conduct serious inquiry.

(EG) all the OTHER pertinacious adherents to SSPX. We deal here not only with disobedience born of arrogance--but scandal.

It takes nerve--chutzpah-- to declaim the Bishops of this Church for "hiding" pervert priests while at the same time attempting to drag souls off the Bark of Peter.

650 posted on 07/19/2004 7:07:03 AM PDT by ninenot (Minister of Membership, TomasTorquemadaGentlemen'sClub)
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To: ninenot
It takes nerve--chutzpah-- to declaim the Bishops of this Church for "hiding" pervert priests while at the same time attempting to drag souls off the Bark of Peter.

Why are you so supportive of "Queerchuch"? Children are being raped by priests and all you can do is point at others and yell "schism".

By the way, the Bark is sinking and the captain is off writing a new book. Tell me who has the chutzpah?

651 posted on 07/19/2004 7:13:36 AM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Grey Ghost II
By the way, the Bark is sinking

It can't sink.

652 posted on 07/19/2004 7:16:52 AM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: gbcdoj; ninenot
It can't sink.

I know it can't sink completely. But most of the passengers can perish. You guys are type that would throw the women and the children off the ship so that you could remain in good favor with the captain.

653 posted on 07/19/2004 7:20:27 AM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: ultima ratio; ninenot; GirlShortstop
Ohhh! The sleep I will lose over the "unfair" treatment of the nasty little Marcellian schism of SSPX being summarily adjudged to be what it is: a nasty little schism and over the summary excommunication of Marcel and the Econe 4!

Oh, the dangers to the faith that the SSPX perceives in the fact that the Roman Catholic Church has the nerve to continue with a pope who disobeys the nasty little schism having already excommunicated its impious patron "saint" of disobedience and his illicitly consecrated junior associate bishops without portfolio or dioceses. Apparently JP II does not understand the SSPX view that his function is to serve as their punching bag (standing in for the entire actual Catholic Church) so long as he offends their rarified and obsessive collective tastes.

As to matters legal, you are as reliable on the law as you are on the Church. I practiced law for decades and you did not. Summary justice is allowable for misconduct in the personal or constructive presence of the court. JP II is the court. He is the legislator. He directly ordered Marcel NOT to consecrate Marcel's partners in ecclesiastical crime. Marcel knew that and agreed in writing not to do so. Unless you claim that the Econe 4 were ignorant of the pope's order, they too fall into the summary justice category. There are no ecclesiastical juries, either.

Your second paragraph eloquently demonstrates the wisdom of Leo XIII in rejecting what he termed the Americanist heresy: inetr alia, that things are different in the US and require different standards. Wrong though you are on even the American law, you try to graft your errors as to American law onto the Roman Catholic Church in Church courts where no recognition is or should be given to American notions of due process since the Roman Catholic Church owes nothing whatsoever to the schismatic platoon or its members and since the Roman Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ needs no restraints upon it unlike governments formed by men. Also, if SSPX has "truth" on its side, that would be by coincidence and not design since SSPX is passionately devoted to YOPIOT rather than actual truth, as its defenders here regularly demonstrate.

Your third paragraph is more of the Americanist methodological erro of your second paragraph but there is more. Now, with typical self-abnegation and humility, the SSPX trolls claim to know the judgment of heaven which, of course, they claim is against the pope. In this, they confuswe themselves with Heaven apparently confusing themselves with the Deity. Your third paragraph also confuses "fair-mindedness" wuith having a sieve for brians and extreme gullibility.

Finally, you who make it your relentless career to accuse the Holy Father of anything and everything that your imagination may conjure in trying to discredit the Holy Father so as to lessen the sting of his judgments upon Marcel, the Econe 4 and the SSPX, have the consummate gall to use the word "fairness." Fairness would have been summarily ordering Marcel and the Econe 4 burned at the stake. Regrettably, experienced help in such executions is hard to find and a couple of them are beyond execution by virtue of natural death and most of today's wimpy nations refuse extradition for such justice.

654 posted on 07/19/2004 8:21:40 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: BlackElk
Finally, you who make it your relentless career to accuse the Holy Father of anything and everything that your imagination may conjure

Did we imagine Assisi I?

Did we imagine Assisi II

Did we imagine the kissing of the Koran?

Did we imagine him wearing the mark of Shiva?

Did we imagine that a known apostate (Kasper) was appointed to a high-level cardinal?

Did we imaging the Ballamand statement?

Did we imagine the Catholic Lutheran Joint Declaration?

\ Did we imagine the desecration of Fatima without a peep from the Holy Father?

If I imagined all of this, then the Holy father is actually Mr. Rogers. "It's a happy day in the ecumenical neighborhood...won't you be my friend?"

655 posted on 07/19/2004 8:41:00 AM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Grey Ghost II
Why are you so supportive of "Queerchuch"? Children are being raped by priests and all you can do is point at others and yell "schism".

I yell, come back here and help bail!

I am arguing with those who say it is no longer a boat, but the rubber raft they are in is the boat, and it can't be a boat because it is sinking.

Others here have said nobody in the SSPX is saying all priests are molesters, and there, you just said it. Where the Pope is, there is the Church, no it will not sink, and those who cling to the promise of Christ for a teacher like the Pope, are not going to find themselves among Sharks.
656 posted on 07/19/2004 9:10:45 AM PDT by Dominick ("Freedom consists not in doing what we like, but in having the right to do what we ought." - JP II)
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To: Grey Ghost II

What you certainly imagined was that it was possible to adhere to the SSPX scism and yet to somehow be Catholic. Once that is understood to be your position, to what else should anyone actually Catholic listen that issues from the SSPX mouth or keyboard. This is not a debate.


657 posted on 07/19/2004 9:32:35 AM PDT by BlackElk (Dean of Discipline of the Tomas de Torquemada Gentlemen's Club)
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To: Dominick
Others here have said nobody in the SSPX is saying all priests are molesters, and there, you just said it.

Why do you lie? Is that no longer a sin in your "church"?

658 posted on 07/19/2004 9:40:59 AM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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To: Grey Ghost II
Did we imagine him wearing the mark of Shiva?

Yes, because the sole source for that is Msgr. Lefebvre, and it was denied by Abp. Foley who explained:

Indian Catholics...use "Aarti" when a child returns home after receiving First Holy Communion, and when a newly married couple are received by their respective families. Nowadays, "Aarti" is often performed to greet the principal celebrant at a liturgical event, as it was on the occasion shown in the photograph. On such occasions, "Aarti" is usually offered by a Catholic married lady, and certainly not by a "priestess of Shiva" as has been alleged ... Use of the "Aarti" ceremonial by Indian Catholics is no more the worship of a heathen deity than is the decoration of the Christmas tree by American Christians a return to the pagan rituals of Northern Europe. Your schismatic friend in the Society of St Pius X should check his facts before spreading such malicious gossip about the Holy Father (cf. Acts 23:1-5). He was simply about to say Mass and received the traditional Indian form of greeting for the celebrant.

Did we imagine that a known apostate (Kasper)

Provide proof of Kasper's apostasy. I was unaware that he had renounced Christianity and became a Buddhist/Muslim/Hindu.

Perfidiæ is the complete and voluntary abandonment of the Christian religion, whether the apostate embraces another religion such as Paganism, Judaism, Mohammedanism, etc., or merely makes profession of Naturalism, Rationalism, etc. The heretic differs from the apostate in that he only denies one or more of the doctrines of revealed religion, whereas the apostate denies the religion itself, a sin which has always been looked upon as one of the most grievous.

659 posted on 07/19/2004 9:43:57 AM PDT by gbcdoj (No one doubts ... that the holy and most blessed Peter ... lives in his successors, and judges.)
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To: gbcdoj
Nowadays, "Aarti" is often performed to greet the principal celebrant at a liturgical event, as it was on the occasion shown in the photograph.

More ecumenical fun. You are pathetic.

660 posted on 07/19/2004 9:52:38 AM PDT by Grey Ghost II
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