Posted on 07/13/2004 9:36:42 PM PDT by cooperkat
I can see why your reaction to the difference then . The difference is that in spite of some doctrinal distinctives, for the most part Catholics and Protestants hold to the same creed. So movement between them frequently happens. The LDS has an issue because its doctrine is quite different than mainstream Christianity.. there is really no place to "move" unless it is a splinter group or the RLSD (is that the right name?)
I know you don’t like the idea of our church growing at any rate, but spreading unsubstantiated rumors (as in post #5) to try and dismiss it seems a little petty if you ask me. Children cannot be baptized without their parent’s permission, and if some guy had his baptism recorded more than once it was a rare mistake. My mission baptized about 150 people per month. I spent 10 months assisting in the mission office an in all that time only ONE baptism didn’t follow proper procedures (the missionaries baptized the person before they attended a Sunday service). Man, did those missionaries catch it for that!
How many of the 150 a month are active ? I think that is the question.
There is some loss in all missions, I would guess. But (and this is just MHO) I would guess that many converts' to the LDS do not fully understand the doctrine well and they do not get the significant difference with their Christian friends and family (especially considering the language difficulties )
I recently read somewhere that only 25% of those that have been converted to the LDS remain active. That is not a huge difference with the RC church , but I think the difference is that most RC's , even if not attending church regularly show up for Holidays and baptisms and first communions. On their death beds they will most likely ask for a priest.
The LDS doctrine is clear on the fate of the non temple worthy , so non attendance would seem to indicate a loss of faith in the doctrine (or an indifference to it)
The growing membership does reflect that the church is growing. If you want a measure of the growth of active church members, then look at the number of new wards, branches, stakes and meetinghouses although these indicators lag behind the growth by at least a year
I believe there is a "consolidation" of missions (from BYU news), and that stakes and wards have many fewer members than would be expected.The wards and stakes are often split when the minimum number of "members" are reached so as to give an appearance of continued fast growth.
I do not care much about the growth )
) But I do think that inflated numbers do give a false impression ( and I do not care what church that is)
"There is some loss in all missions, I would guess. But (and this is just MHO) I would guess that many converts' to the LDS do not fully understand the doctrine well and they do not get the significant difference with their Christian friends and family (especially considering the language difficulties )"
It's been a long time since I've done a baptisimal interview, but to qualify for baptism a person needs a testemony of Christ, a testemony that the church is true, and be willing to commit to keeping the commandments (and currently be keeping some specific ones). They would have had the 6 discussions. In short, they would be better informed than a lot of early christians were when they joined up (see Acts 2). Missionaries also involve local members as early and often as they can before baptism too and I really don't think language barriers exist to that extent. After batpism there are the new member discussions and the Gosple Doctrine classes and these are usually taught by local members. By the end of that they know more about the teachings of the church than many non-mormons know about the teachings of theirs.
I can't recall ever seeing a new member go inactive because they learned something in those lessons that was unacceptable to them. In the vast majority of cases they either fell back into old sinful habbits and felt going to church would be hypocracy, or they gave into heavy peer pressure from friends or family, or they felt offended by some misunderstood remark from some other member. The parable of the sower teaches that the gosple seed lands in all kinds of soil, sometimes only sprouting for a short time or not at all, but the difference is in the soil, not the seed.
"The LDS doctrine is clear on the fate of the non temple worthy , so non attendance would seem to indicate a loss of faith in the doctrine (or an indifference to it) "
LDS doctrine is that there will be people who die with a temple recomend who don't make it, and others who don't but who will. I've worked with many inactive members and jumping to the conclusion that they have lost faith or are indifferent because they don't come out is not justified.
"I believe there is a "consolidation" of missions (from BYU news), and that stakes and wards have many fewer members than would be expected.The wards and stakes are often split when the minimum number of "members" are reached so as to give an appearance of continued fast growth."
I'm not aware of any specific consolidations happening recently, but I do know that the number of 18-25 year olds (potential missionaries) is a shrinking demographic in the church and will be for several years (less than it is in the general population, but still shrinking). They are also restricting missionary service to only those who have maintained a high level of personal conduct beforehand, and serving a mission is still strongly encouraged, but no longer considered a requried duty. I expected the number of missionaries to decrease because of that, but didn't stop to think that it could very well lead to fewer missions as well until you mentioned that.
As for splitting wards etc. The church could care less about maintaining appearances. When the situation justifies a split (and the number of people attending is one of the main factors in that), it is generally in the best interests of all the members to split the ward. Local leaders are not overburdened with caring for a very large flock and there are more opportunities for members gain the blessings of serving in the church.
In the end, rates of growth really don't mean all that much. Growth is not always a function of truth, and shrinkage not proof of falsehood. Noah had only 7 converts with him in the ark. I expect that soon all churches that hold to basic morality will see their growth affected by the increasing wickedness of the world.
On this we can agree. I always say Jesus only had 12 and then many others that stoned him.
Numbers do not translate to truth .
Maybe about the numbers, but SURELY 'maintaining appearances' is high on the LDS organization's mission statement, isn't it?
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