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To: Ronzo; betty boop; marron; Alamo-Girl; Diamond; Thermopylae
However, if anyone has any philosophical insights, they are welcome to share them.

No, but I do have some philosophical questions. I ask these not for arguments sake (e.g. I already know what I think and i'm just dragging people into a "discussion"), I would just like to hear peoples opinions.

First, In John 16:7 Jesus says, "But i tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." If we work from the premise that The Holy Spirit is God (as Acts 5:1-4 and many, many others would affirm), and if one of the attributes of the Holy Spirit is omnipresence (as Psalm 139:7-10 would affirm), then why is it necessary for Jesus to "send" the Spirit when the Spirit is clearly already here?

Second, more practical question (and this one I do have some sort of opinion on, but I want to hear other views), can somebody be a Christian without having the Holy Spirit? And, if so, what are we to make of Paul's question to the Ephesians in Acts 19:2, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

Many thanks in advance for your input and viewpoints

pony

92 posted on 06/06/2004 3:08:16 PM PDT by ponyespresso (simul justus et peccator)
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To: ponyespresso
Your #92: Second, ... can somebody be a Christian without having the Holy Spirit? And, if so, what are we to make of Paul's question to the Ephesians in Acts 19:2, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

Acts 19: 1-6
1 AND it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John’s baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
Paul's question was: Have you received the laying on of hands for the Gift of the Holy Spirit? (Compare Acts 2:37-38.) This is an ordinance of the Gospel that follows the ordinance of baptism by immersion in water, both performed by those having priesthood authority. Thus the believer enters in at the strait gate, and doing as Jesus taught, is on the narrow path to eternal life.

All who believe in Christ are Christians, and they show that they believe by living according to His teachings. Christ taught us to repent and be baptized, and John the Baptist said that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit and with fire. The Christian who obeys the laws and ordinances of the Gospel of Jesus Christ receives the Gift of the Holy Spirit, which is the privilege of having the Holy Spirit as a constant companion (or indwelling, from John 14:17) inasmuch as he or she lives accordingly.

93 posted on 06/06/2004 10:38:16 PM PDT by White Mountain (By their fruits ye shall know them.)
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To: ponyespresso
Your #92: First, ... why is it necessary for Jesus to "send" the Spirit when the Spirit is clearly already here?

It shows the relationship between God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, just as the following shows the relationship between God the Father and God the Son, all three of whom are omnipresent.

Acts 3:20-21
20 And he [God the Father] shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Proceed forth from the presence of God the Father is what you do when you are sent by Him. You go from heaven to earth to do as you have been commanded.

These are among a multitude of verses that show that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons who are One, having a perfect unity of heart, mind, purpose, thought, action, etc.

94 posted on 06/06/2004 11:10:00 PM PDT by White Mountain (By their fruits ye shall know them.)
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To: ponyespresso; Alamo-Girl; Thermopylae; White Mountain
Hi pony,

Since White Mt. was the only one to answer your questions, I thought I would offer you a couple of quick answers to your queries based on my non-LDS, trans-denominational perspective:

First, In John 16:7 Jesus says, "But i tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." If we work from the premise that The Holy Spirit is God (as Acts 5:1-4 and many, many others would affirm), and if one of the attributes of the Holy Spirit is omnipresence (as Psalm 139:7-10 would affirm), then why is it necessary for Jesus to "send" the Spirit when the Spirit is clearly already here?

Looking at the ministry of the Holy Spirit in the context of the entire NT, it becomes clear that their is an aspect of the Holy Spirit's ministry that is often referred to as "indwelling." The Holy Spirit, through some means that remains mysterious to this day, somehow ties himself to your soul & spirit, enabling you in wisdom, power and love far beyond your own abilities. It is very much an experiential reality, something you can actually feel.

Second, more practical question (and this one I do have some sort of opinion on, but I want to hear other views), can somebody be a Christian without having the Holy Spirit? And, if so, what are we to make of Paul's question to the Ephesians in Acts 19:2, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"

Yes, you can believe in Jesus without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. As a matter of fact, intellectual belief in Jesus is prerequisite to being filled with the Holy Spirit in the NT. (Other rules apply for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the OT...) However, there is nothing in the NT that would lead us to believe that you must be filled with the Holy Spirit upon intellectual belief in Jesus. It is not automatic nor is it guarenteed. Belief in Jesus and being filled with the Holy Spirit are always presented as being two completely different and seperate acts throughout the NT. We equate these two different acts at the peril of greatly distorting the Word of God.

97 posted on 06/09/2004 10:59:40 AM PDT by Ronzo (GOD bless all those families who lost a loved while serving in the American Armed Forces.)
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