Correct--for now we must disagree! But it's interesting how it all comes back to the Holy Spirit!
I really appreciate the opportunity to debate you on this topic! It was a great learning experience, and hopefully the lurkers reading these posts learned a thing or two as well. This is what makes the Free Republic such an excellent resource!
You did a fine job presenting the pre-trib position. You covered most, if not all the main points in favor of it. But your last point is the most important point of all: it's what you received in the Spirit. Some people may think that's a silly way to discern truth, but it's amazing how accurate those Spirit illuminations can be.
The wonderful thing about this particular topic, is that there will ultimately be a "right answer." Whether we are alive here on earth, or have a ring-side seat in heaven, we will see how the end-times ulimately plays out, and all the mystery and confustion will be removed, once and for all. Personally, I hope the pre-trib position is the correct one! But according to insight and the illumination the Spirit gave me, I must be the champion for the post-tribulation ratpure, especially since there's very few, if any evangelicals who hold to that viewpoint. It's a rather scary and unsettling way to look at the end-times, so I don't blame people for teaching a pre-trib rapture, it's so much more reassuring! It was due to that reassurance that I believed in it so strongly for many years.
Yet there is one significant point I have, other than the Spirit's leading, that has caused me to strongly favor the post-trib position, and that point is it's simplicity and elegance. While that might seem a rather subjective way to evalute a position, the fact is we do it all the time, and by looking for a elegant solution, we usually find the greatest truths.
There are many more complications to the pre-trib position that simply don't exist in the post-trib viewpoint. Here's a list of just a few:
1.) There will be a "secret" rapture where Christians will simply disappear without a trace, and this will happen seven years before Jesus really comes back to earth.
2.) Because the pre-trib teachers insist that it is Jesus who comes and rapture the believers, they are forced into the unenviable position of believing in a second and a third coming of Jesus. The second coming is the rapture, and the third coming is when Jesus comes back to earth to reign. Often, it is taught that are two raptures as well, one at the beginning of the seven year tribulation period, and one at the end.
3.) A "new" church will be raised up as people realize that the truth of what happened to all those Christians! However, this is going to be a rather bizzare entity, in that there will be no Holy Spirit for them to rely upon. He's gone...
4.) The reason the church and the Holy Spirit go away is so that God can deal with the Jews. However, this idea is often contradicted by the fact that a new psuedo-church is raised up amongst those who are "left behind..." So God, in fact, does not deal with the Jews alone...
With the post-trib position, there is only one return of Christ--to both rapture the saints and to set up rule on earth. There is only one rapture. There is no need for the Holy Spirit to disappear along with the church. There is no need for a "replacement" psuedo-church. There is no special emphasis on Israel, though Israel does have a special role to play in the end-times. (But her role is geographic, not spiritual.)
It is a simple, elegant doctrine, and one that completely harmonizes with scritpure. You will never find a verse or passage that contradicts it --I should know, I've been looking for one for over ten years!
There is a lot to be said for simplicity. The gospel message of salvation is a very simple message. The core truths of the Bible can easily be understood by a child.
In the end, the post-trib position wins the prize for simplicity and elegance. When looking for truth, simplicity and elegance are very important signposts.
The only downside to the pre-trib position is one of fear. People absolutely hate even thinking about the possiblity of going through the tribualation period, even though there will be Christians who make it through to the end. Personally, I don't blame them for hating the idea. Yet when Jesus came to this earth, knowing full well the extremely painful fate that awaited him, he somehow managed to do all that his Father had in store for him, including the Passion! Why should God expect anything less from us?
Well, that's my take on things, thanks to many insights the Holy Spirit has given me over the years.
Thanks so much for giving me this opportunity to share a view of the end-times not many people consider. If nothing else, it will certainly provide food for thought, and perhaps even further bible study, which is always a good thing!
The Spirit has confirmed my understanding of the Philadelphians but has not been conclusive as to the when of their rapture, whether it is pre-trib or mid-trib. And as I mentioned at (post 12), I do indeed expect several raptures.
But to get back to the difference in our understanding from the Spirit, I would like to point out the differences between Peter, Paul and John. Although it is clear they were all being led of the Holy Spirit, Peter and Paul certainly had some doctrinal disputes that flared up in Acts 15 but resulted in the Gospel being spread even further than if they had not had the dispute!
More specific to the point in this tribulation discussion – both Peter and Paul were martyred but John was not..
Here is the difference – both with John being spared martyrdom and the Philadelphians being spared from the hour of temptation that will test the whole world - in both cases there is a presence of a special love by Jesus (emphasis mine):
Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee?
Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what [shall] this man [do]? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me. – John 21:19-22
Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
After all, the Spirit of God in Revelation 1-5 appears as seven-fold. I sense this like a diamond with seven facets – one Holy Spirit, seven aspects. Back in post 4, I was wondering whether the Comforter is but one of these. I am now with the understanding that the Comforter is all of these and that is why Christians of good conscience can have what we believe are differences but are not.