Musings on the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit

Your #19: The youngest memeber of the group had the best, most succint answer: you have to 'walk the talk.'

Precisely! Thanks for your fine post!

I was asking R7 if she was using the term Illumination as in quicken?

Illumination as in a form of light or even could be used as enlightment!

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BIBLE DICTIONARY
HOLY GHOST

The third member of the Godhead and, as the name implies, a personage of Spirit, not possessing a body of flesh and bones (D&C 130: 21-22). The Holy Ghost is manifested in every dispensation of the gospel since the beginning, being first made known to Adam (1 Ne. 10: 17-22; Moses 6: 51-68). The Holy Ghost is manifested to men on the earth both as the power of the Holy Ghost and as the gift of the Holy Ghost. The power can come upon one before baptism, and is the convincing witness that the gospel is true. It gives one a testimony of Jesus Christ and of his work and the work of his servants upon the earth. The gift can come only after proper and authorized baptism, and is conferred by the laying on of hands, as in Acts 8: 12-25 and Moroni 2: 1-3. The gift of the Holy Ghost is the right to have, whenever one is worthy, the companionship of the Holy Ghost. More powerful than that which is available before baptism, it acts as a cleansing agent to purify a person and sanctify him from all sin. Thus it is often spoken of as “fire” (Matt. 3: 11; 2 Ne. 31: 17; D&C 19: 31). The manifestation on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2) was the gift of the Holy Ghost that came upon the Twelve, without which they were not ready for their ministries to the world.

For some reason not fully explained in the scriptures, the Holy Ghost did not operate in the fulness among the Jews during the years of Jesus’ mortal sojourn (John 7: 39; John 16: 7). Statements to the effect that the Holy Ghost did not come until after Jesus was resurrected must of necessity refer to that particular dispensation only, for it is abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost was operative in earlier dispensations. Furthermore, it has reference only to the gift of the Holy Ghost not being present, since the power of the Holy Ghost was operative during the ministries of John the Baptist and Jesus; otherwise no one would have received a testimony of the truths that these men taught (cf. Matt. 16: 16-17; 1 Cor. 12: 3). When a person speaks by the power of the Holy Ghost that same power carries a conviction of the truth into the heart of the hearer (2 Ne. 33: 1). The Holy Ghost knows all things (D&C 35: 19) and can lead one to know of future events (2 Pet. 1: 21).

Other names that sometimes refer to the Holy Ghost are Holy Spirit, Spirit of god, Spirit of the Lord, Comforter, and Spirit.

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The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
© 2000 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

BIBLE DICTIONARY HOLY GHOST

***Jesus does not work this way. Nor does the Holy Spirit. Nor did the ancient apostles.

We should instead, as you have also encouraged, exhort all to come to Christ, receive those He has sent, follow His example in meekness, humility, and kindness, and let His light shine through us.***

18 - My object in going to inquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

19 - I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: “they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.”

20 He again forbade me to join with any of them;

Joseph Smith

***and they always seem to imply that the other guy is the heretic.***

Hmmmmm......

Your #11 and others: "our gathering together unto him" --the rapture

I would suggest in the interest of clarity that the Biblical phrasing be used rather than the word "rapture" which is not found in the Bible, because "gathering" is obviously not in every case "caught up to meet Him", and I think it is best to call it "gathering" where the Bible says "gathering".

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

We believe what the Bible says about the Second Coming. We believe that the Lord also said this:

D&C 88:95-98
95 And there shall be silence in heaven for the space of half an hour; and immediately after shall the curtain of heaven be unfolded, as a scroll is unfolded after it is rolled up, and the face of the Lord shall be unveiled;
96 And the saints that are upon the earth, who are alive, shall be quickened and be caught up to meet him.
97 And they who have slept in their graves shall come forth, for their graves shall be opened; and they also shall be caught up to meet him in the midst of the pillar of heaven—
98 They are Christ’s, the first fruits, they who shall descend with him first, and they who are on the earth and in their graves, who are first caught up to meet him; and all this by the voice of the sounding of the trump of the angel of God.

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

As I think about the saints, both living in mortality and newly resurrected, being caught up to meet Him, whose right it is to reign, as He descends, I also think about the wicked being burned by the brightness of His Coming (see also Malachi 4), and I wonder if the two are connected, in other words, the righteous are caught up to meet Him in order to be entirely separated from the wicked at that time.

Your #43: Hmmmmm......

My #40: There are people in this world who seem to address every disagreement with their religious views by claiming that it is rooted in heresy somehow, and they always seem to imply that the other guy is the heretic. It is a way of insisting on conformity with their views.

Jesus did not tell Joseph Smith to change his thinking or else be cut off as a heretic. Jesus told him, after he asked for wisdom, not to join any of those churches.

By the way, how common is it for a Protestant to say that the Lord called him or her out of this church and into that church?

I am so happy that your mother was able to say her goodbyes and then passed on so relatively quickly, and that you and yours are comforted in your grief. I remember, years ago, being impressed quite profoundly during my mother-in-law's funeral with her joy at being released by her death from years of suffering, to enjoy the heavenly bliss that was now hers. I was trying to sing the vocal solo she had previously asked me to sing at her funeral, and could barely finish it.

Thank you so much for your reply and your question!

And helps us see beyond the corporeal to the true spiritual?

I’m confident that you already know the Truth and are only asking the question rhetorically for Lurkers. So I shall respond as if speaking, not to you or others already on the journey home, but rather to one newly born again (John 3).

Dearest brother or sister in Christ,

We welcome you into the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12) through the indwelling Spirit (John 15), the living Word of God (John 1).

You are in for an awesome, eternal adventure as God reveals Himself to you through the indwelling Spirit:

But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. – 1 Corinthians 2:9-10

As you mature in your walk with the Lord, you will be able to surrender to Him more fully. When you achieve this, you will be able to ignore the physical world around you and worship Him and pray to Him in the Spirit alone. This is where He wants you to arrive, because when you are there you are already in a state of being home even if you are still in the flesh:

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. –John 4:23-24

And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we [are]. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves. – John 17:11-13

That might sound a little scary, or even morbid, at first. But do not fear (1 John 4:18). This physical life holds nothing for you. It is like a temporary illusion whose end is already decreed (Revelation). And if you cling to it, you will quench the Spirit (1 Thess 5:9) and make no further progress on your journey.

To keep yourself from drifting out of His Light (1 John 1:7), make it a point every day to spend time in the Scriptures – especially the Gospel of John and Romans 8:

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. – Romans 8:5-10

The Spirit Himself will write Truth in your heart and will help you and guide you and protect you as long as you are willing:

Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart. – 2 Corinthians 3:2-3

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 8:38-39

Keep the Great Commandments always. Make it your first priority to love God absolutely and everyone else unconditionally. If you do this, you may even be among those specially blessed with visions beyond this physical realm:

It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. – 2 Corinthians 12:1-4

May the peace of God which surpasses all understanding keep your heart and mind in Christ Jesus, always. (Philippians 4:6-7)

Love,

Your new sister Sandi.

Thank you so much for your excellent post, the Scripture passages and all the kinds words of encouragement!

There are people in this world who seem to address every disagreement with their religious views by claiming that it is rooted in heresy somehow, and they always seem to imply that the other guy is the heretic. It is a way of insisting on conformity with their views.

I am not offended when others accuse me of a heresy for I am indeed "captive of the Word of God". It saddens me when it happens though because it causes tension which can drive others away.

But at the same time it is understandable because many have placed all their faith in a particular doctrine crafted by a mortal, and they would naturally presume that there is only one Truth and therefore they must be right and everyone else must be wrong.

Indeed, there is only one Truth but Christ has allowed us a certain degree of freedom the limits of which are outlined in His commendations and condemnations of the churches in Revelation. He selected apostles with very much different personalities and allowed them to dispute one another and spread the Gospel even further (Acts). He could have easily selected only one personality type and/or settled the disputes among them.

And when I look at various Christian denominations today, I perceive a common belief in Jesus and stark differences on the doctrines. On the one end are the Eastern Orthodox who eschew doctrine and on the other end, the Roman Catholics who add tradition on par with Scripture.

It is like a village where a seeker can find a home which is comfortable to him personally, while he learns of Christ and allows the Spirit to lead him to Truth. So despite all the grumbling and crossfire, I believe it all works together for the good. (Romans 8)

Thank you so very much for the explanation and the definition!

Thank you so much for your post and suggestion and question!

Concerning the suggestion of using the term gathering rather than rapture - I have chosen to use the term "rapture" because so many here are familiar with the common meaning of those who have and will cheat physical death altogether. The word itself has a much richer meaning which applies to worship and the death of a saint: ”state or experience of being carried away by overwhelming emotion” and “a mystical experience in which the spirit is exalted to a knowledge of divine things”.

On personal experience, when I am in such a profound worship that I am raptured in the Spirit, my physical body is not apparent to me in any fashion. Thus, I believe the “rapture” and this more expansive meaning are basically speaking to the same spiritual state of being.

Concerning your question:

As I think about the saints, both living in mortality and newly resurrected, being caught up to meet Him, whose right it is to reign, as He descends, I also think about the wicked being burned by the brightness of His Coming (see also Malachi 4), and I wonder if the two are connected, in other words, the righteous are caught up to meet Him in order to be entirely separated from the wicked at that time.

I do not believe the two are connected because we are the children of Light and are admonished to walk in His Light. His Light is not hazardous to us. Please read my post number 10 above for the relevant passages.

I believe the last verses apply to the pre-trib rapture because people wouldn’t be “eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage” – working in the fields, etc. when the ecology was mostly destroyed and they had suffered physical injuries galore and economic disaster and other such horrific calamities as prophesied in Revelation for the Great Tribulation.

Yes, there will be great judgements on unbelievers during the time of Revelation and the during reign of the antichrist, but not enough to put an end to the "good life."

Revelation 18--the lament over the destruction of Babylon--is proof that people will be "eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage" until Jesus comes back and the first, and only, rapture takes place:

“‘Woe! Woe, O great city, dressed in fine linen, purple and scarlet, and glittering with gold, precious stones and pearls!
In one hour such great wealth has been brought to ruin!’
“Every sea captain, and all who travel by ship, the sailors, and all who earn their living from the sea, will stand far off. When they see the smoke of her burning, they will exclaim,
‘Was there ever a city like this great city?’
They will throw dust on their heads, and with weeping and mourning cry out:
“‘Woe! Woe, O great city, where all who had ships on the sea became rich through her wealth!
In one hour she has been brought to ruin!
Rejoice over her, O heaven! Rejoice, saints and apostles and prophets! God has judged her for the way she treated you.’”
Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
“With such violence the great city of Babylon will be thrown down, never to be found again.
The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again.
No workman of any trade will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again.
The light of a lamp will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world’s great men.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth.”
- Revelation 18:16-24 NIV

While this is certainly a very poetic description of the destruction of Babylon, it points out some very interesting things we need to note:

1. Life was fairly normal (at least for those living in Babylon!) up to it's very end.

2. The end for Babylon came "in one hour." This is another way of saying very quickly and without warning.

3. Starting in 18:1, we see that Babylon was a center of commerce and luxury up to the very "hour" it was destroyed. Whatever plauges and disasters struck, it did not have much of an effect, if any, on Babylon and it's citizens. And if the plagues and disasters did not have much of an effect on Babylon before it was destroyed, then they must not have had much of an effect on other nations than traded with her.

This might be difficult to believe considering the nature of the plauges described, but it's amazing how "normal" of a life you can live even in the midst of great hardship. Even during times of war, famine, and disease, people still manage to feed themselves, get married, and even celebrate! The destruction Jesus is refering to when he brings up Noah is not just a series of plauges and disasters, but the ultimate, final destruction of the wicked. In other words, not just punishment and judgment, but death itself.

Now here's something that's quite interesting....

Right before the destruction of Babylon, which occurs when the seventh bowl judgment is poured out, we have these very words of Jesus recorded by John:

“Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”
- Revelation 16:15 NIV

Here it is, only one plauge to go, and Jesus is warning us that he's coming like a thief! If he came already, then why is he warning us that he's still to come? "I come like a thief" is the cornerstone upon which the pre-trib is built, yet a majority of the stuff in Revelation has already occured when Jesus says these words in the context of Revelation! It is important to note that up to this point in Revelation, there is no description of Jesus coming back to earth to gather his saints. That does not occur until Rev 19 & 20.

Soon after Jesus utters these words in Rev 16:15, we have the quick and unexpected destruction of Babylon (Rev 18) and then Jesus comes back to earth to reign (Rev 19 & 20).

Then there is one little passage in Revelation 20 that utterly destroys the idea of a pre-trib rapture. Note that all the events of the end-times have taken place at this point, including Armageddon and the return of Christ to earth:

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge.
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God.
They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands.
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.)
This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
- Revelation 20:4-6 NIV

Here, for the first time in the book of Revelation, we have a passage that speaks of the rapture. John is speaking of the "first resurrection" from the dead, where the dead in Christ come to life and reign with Jesus. Notice that John insists this is the first resurrection, and for it to be first, no resurrection of the dead in Christ could have possibly proceeded it. For the first time in the book of Revelation, here in Chapter 20, after all the horrid events have taken place, and Jesus has come back to reign on earth, do we finally have the rapture.

How do we know for sure that these passages from Rev 20:4-6 are the rapture? We know this because at the time of the rapture, the dead in Christ will be resurrected first, before any living Christian. We often forget that the rapture is not only for those who are alive on earth at the time of Christ's return, but it is also for those who are already dead in Christ!

Paul makes sure we understand this point in his first letter to the Thessalonians:

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
- 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NIV

The dead in Christ are not resurrected until Chapter 20 of Revelation, well after the tribulation and all the other events of the end-times have occured. Therefore, scripture once again soundly contradicts the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture.

No matter what line of reasoning you take for the pre-trib rapture, there's always at least one, if not many sciptures that contradicts it.

Now do understand that I was indoctrinated into the docrine of the pre-trib rapture right from Day One of my salvation. I knew the teachings better than anyone else, and taught the pre-trib rapture as being the truth.

However, the Holy Spirit would not allow me to hold on to those views. When I studied the Bible, I realized that in order to hold on to the pre-trib rapture teachings, I'd have to throw out the Bible! There isn't so much as a single passage in the whole Bible that one could interpret as supporting a pre-trib rapture. As a matter of fact, most of the teachings of the pre-trib rapture are pure speculation. I've searched for over fifteen years, and cannot find so much as a single verse that supports pre-trib rapture. Literally all the verses used to support it are either taken out of context or are stripped of their plain meaning, and given a "spiritual" meaning that contradicts the plain meaning of the text.

Personally, I would much prefer a pre-trib rapture! For what Christian would want to endure the wrath of the antichrist as he seeks to remove all Christians from the face of the earth??? I didn't become a Christian to be a martyr for the faith!

But the Holy Spirit showed me that the pre-trib rapture is completely unbiblical. He changed my views, using nothing more than scipture to do it.

What is more, the Holy Spirit has also clearly shown me that the philosophy behind the pre-trib rapture is nothing less than satanic. I do not exagerate. This doctrine is evil, and from the pits of hell.

And what is the philosophy behind the pre-trib rapture that makes it so very evil? That philosophy is that God will protect us from persecution--especially persecution that leads to death. However, God makes no such promise in the NT. As a matter of fact, He makes a point of telling us over and over to expect persecution, and even persecution unto death!!! Eleven of the Twelve apostles can't be wrong--John is the only apostle that was not martyred, as far as we know.

And of course, Christians are martyred nearly every day around the world, espeically in the Mid-East, Africa and south Asia. If Christians are being martyred even as I write this, then how can we preach and teach a doctrine who's entire point is avoiding persecution unto death?

According to the pre-trib doctine, God is going to raise up a whole new church after we are gone, so they will be persecuted unto death in our place! How very nice! It's right there in all the "Left Behind" books, and has been taught ever since their has been such a thing as a pre-trib rapture.

Now here's the question: Why would God take one church out of the world in order to escape persecution, only to raise up a brand-new church so they can suffer for the sake of the Gospel in our place? What was wrong with the church already here, that God had to remove them? Perhaps they were just too wimpy and self-absorbed, so God did not wish to honor them by having them die for their fatih...

Of course the American church does not teach about the high honor of being a martyr for the faith; that has become a disgusting idea amongst the church. Instead we are taught that we all get a ticket out of here, so that we can avoid all the pain and suffering. After all, God wouldn't want us to experinece pain and discomfort, would He? No, of course not. That's why there will be scapegoats; a new church created after we are gone; so we can party with Jesus without having to have had the experience of getting our heads cut-off. After all, Jesus certainly didn't experinece any pain or suffering while he was on earth...

The Catholics once taught--and I think they still teach-- that the end-times will be "the passion" of the church. No need, or even a desire, for a pre-trib rapture. Rather, they understand that the church might just have to experience the same pain and suffering as did Jesus before God brings everything to a conclusion.

Don't you see the evil behind all this? If it weren't for the need to escape from persecution of the antichrist, there would be no need for a pre-trib rapture. It's that simple.

The Anglo/American church decided that God would never allow them to experience the pains of persecution, so they invented the pre-trib rapture out of whole cloth as a means to escape even the idea of persecution unto death.

Let's be honest: one of the pre-trib teachers' main points in support of the pre-trib ratpure is that God would NEVER pour out His wrath on his own people. But then these same pre-trib teachers have no problem what-so-ever inventing the idea of a "new church" which will come into existence after the rapture to bear the brunt of all our pain and suffering. Well why are we so special, and they aren't? Why do they get to suffer in our place?

And why is scripture completely silent about this whole idea about a "new church" coming into existence after the rapture? Why are there no verses or passages what-so-ever that support this idea?

Let's call the pre-trib rapture what it is: an total escape from the idea of having to suffer for the sake of the Gospel. Jesus, and most of the apostles suffered unto death. And while they didn't like it, they allowed God to put them into positions that demanded their very lives. So why is it that the pre-trib people are jumping the gun, and already saying "NO" to the cross??? Is this an attitude that pleases God???

Something to think about, anyway...

Personally, I don't want to be martyred. It's not my idea of a good time. Nor do I want my wife or children to be martyred. But I will not go so far as to think that will never happen. Nor will I go so far as to think God would never want that for me. I hope and pray that I will spared from all that, but I don't really know what's in store for the future. But if my life is demanded becaue I love and preach the Word of Truth, I do hope I will be able to honor all those martyrs who've gone before me.

Alamo-Girl, if you wish to believe in the pre-trib rapture, that's fine. But please take into account what I'm saying here, and keep it in the back of your mind. Perhaps you will be home with the LORD before any of this "end-times" stuff comes to pass, and so you will be watching from the grandstands in heaven.

But if you are still here, and things get rather difficult for us Christians because there's a very charismatic man on earth telling us he's god, and backs it up with signs and wonders, do remember what I've said.

As for me, I'd much rather believe in the post-trib rapture and find out I'm wrong, then to believe in the pre-trib rapture and find out I'm wrong!

But I would put anyone who asks others to follow himself or his private revelation rather than God in exactly the same bucket and that is why I eschew all doctrine and traditions of men – including Calvin and Arminius and seemingly neverending authorities and commentators.

Amen to that! So often doctrines, traditions, and even systems of theology takes us further away from the truth, rather than help us understand it more!

I assert that we must focus utterly on the Great Commandments – to love God absolutely and everyone else unconditionally. We must let nothing whatsoever obscure our view of God. No doctrine, tradition, authority or mortal must get in between unless the Father personally establishes it which He did in Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit and the Scriptures.

Yes! How true! So many of us settle for a relationship with doctines, traditions, and systems rather than the person of Jesus Christ! A poor substitute IMHO...

I wonder if the two are connected, in other words, the righteous are caught up to meet Him in order to be entirely separated from the wicked at that time.

That makes perfect sense WM, and will probably be exactly how things transpire.

This is an EXCELLENT discussion.

Again, we differ on the Word of God. You see the “word of God” as the written Scriptures. As I explained in post 21, I know the Word of God personally. He is alive from the beginning to the end; He is Jesus Christ. He indwells in the person of the Holy Spirit. Certainly, it is impossible for any mortal to “complete the word of God” – He is God! Ahhh, it is so refreshing to hear someone say this. Most do see "the Word" as what is just written on paper. The Word is Jesus and He is alive and doing great things. AG, this comment got me happy this morning, lol.

Good article. I concur, although paragragh #9, I believe is a bit mistaken when it states there is no evidence in the NT that the Holy Spirit is automatically given upon salvation. Quite the opposite, the salvation itself is evidence of that indwelling.

The topical study would include the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit.

In Eph 4:30 we are commanded not to grieve the Holy Spirit, whereby we are sealed until the day of redemption.

In 2Cor 1:21,22 we are also mentioned as having been sealed by the Holy Spirit in our hearts as earnest, similar to a down payment or guarantee of our salvation.

A vocabulary regarding the Holy Spirit is of fundamental understanding when studying these issues. Discern between indwelling, filling, grieving, and quenching.

Upon faith in Christ and faith alone, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Indwelling is not the same as the filling of the Spirit, although our initial salvation is accompanied by a filling of the Spirit.

The indwelling of the Spirit provides a temple for the indwelling of the Son in each and every believer.

Man is body, soul and spirit. Since Adam and the fall in the Garden, man is initially dichotomous or simply body and soul, dead or separate from a living spirit.

Upon faith in Christ and Christ alone, the Holy Spirit makes that faith efficacious for salvation by the creation of the living human spirit in the believer.

We are sealed by 5 sealings associated with the Holy Spirit.

I. Seal of Efficiacious Grace. God the Holy Spirit puts His seal upon the faith alone of the unbeliever to make it effective for salvation.

II. The sealing of Eternal Life. God the Holy Spirit guarantees eternal life at the point of salvation by creating the human spirit, which God the Father imputes eternal life.

III. The seal of eternal security in time.

At the moment of salvation, God the Holy Spirit seals us for eternal security. No believer can undo what God has done. To sin is to grieve the Holy Spirit. Quenching the Holy Spirit is the act of human volition choosing not to continue to grow and/or walk through Christ. To be filled with the Holy Spirit is to allow the Holy Spirit control the battlefield of the soul, while the indwelliing of the Holy Spirit is a permanent seal of the Spirit by the creation of the human spirit and our spirit being alive which is only from God.

Eph 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, in whom ye were sealed unto the day of redemption.

Whenever we sin, as believers we have been faced with a temptation and have chosen by our own personal volition to think independently of the Spirit. As soon as our thinking strays from Him, not the temptation or initial thought, but the consequential thinking when we stray, we have given control of our thinking to the old sin nature vice remaining filled with the Spirit. That sin is not merely a change in our own state, but it also grieves the Holy Spirit.

Our sins are forgiven and they have already been paid for by Jesus Christ on the Cross. The sin and salvation are not really the issue here. That has already been settled. What is the issue and the battle objective is the volition of the believer in choosing God, remaining filled with the Spirit, in order that the many rewards predestined for us and placed in escrow for us in heaven might be rewarded to us when we arrive. Where we grieve the Spirit, we don't get away with anything.....we still have salvation, but we lose many of those rewards which would have been ours had we remained faithful in all things through Christ continually.

IV. The sealing of our personal invisible gifts.

The Father has provided the annoiting and sealed us by a 'down-payment' of the Spirit in our hearts,...(portion of our thinking which is a matured essence developed after dynamic thinking which is characterized as our selves) Recognition of the Spirit in our hearts is another seal of our eternal security.

2Cor 1:21,22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, [is] God;...Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Anointing or unction [1 Jn 2:20,27] is identified with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, but is not identical with the 'filling of the Holy Spirit'. [Acts 4:27, 10:38; 2 Cor 1:21]

1 Jn 2:20,27 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things....As for you, let that abide in you which ye heard from the beginning. If that which ye heard from the beginning abide in you, ye also shall abide in the Son, and in the Father.....And this is the promise which he promised us, even the life eternal....And as for you, the anointing which ye received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any one teach you; but as his anointing teacheth you; concerning all things, and is true, and is no lie, and even as it taught you, ye abide in him.

Acts 4:27 for of a truth in this city against thy holy Servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, were gathered together,

Acts 10:38 even Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

V. The Holy Spirit seals us for the Redemption of the Body.

Redemption of the soul occurs at the moment of salvation. Redemption of the body occurs on the Rapture or Resurrection

Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Col 1:13-14 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated [us] into the kingdom of his dear Son: ..In whom we have redemption through his blood, [even] the forgiveness of sins:

Rom 8:23 And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

Thank you so much for your additional rigorous defenses of the post-trib theology!

To me, this dispute is much like the dispute between Peter and Paul in Jerusalem over compliance with Jewish tradition to be held by Gentiles converted to Christianity. There is only one Truth but the Scriptures avail to several interpretations. Like the doctrine of separation, it is not a “poison pill” issue but the differences create diversification which, in the end, I believe is a good thing (“all things work together for the good” Romans 8).

Concerning the pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib debate – I do understand where believers can deduce any combination of them or any one of them. Though a pre-trib scenario rings true in the Spirit, He has not cautioned me against any of the others. But He does compel me to these points which I share:

That the resurrection applies to the (incorruptible) bodily resurrection of those who have passed through physical death:

Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then [is] our preaching vain, and your faith [is] also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man [came] death, by man [came] also the resurrection of the dead.

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death. 1 Corinthians 12:12-26

That the above speaks of both the first resurrection and the second, at the very end and the coming of the new heaven and earth. (I believe the first resurrection is the reference in Matthew 24 and the passages you quote from Revelation.)

That the second resurrection is for judgment:

But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust. – Acts 24:14-15

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection. Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. – Revelation 20:4-6

And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. – Revelation 20:14

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.- Revelation 21:8

That the resurrection and the rapture are different. In the rapture, the believer does not pass through physical death, but obtains his incorruptible body instantly:

So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. Howbeit that [was] not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man [is] of the earth, earthy: the second man [is] the Lord from heaven. As [is] the earthy, such [are] they also that are earthy: and as [is] the heavenly, such [are] they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:42-55

That while a believer sleeps in Christ, awaiting the resurrection of his body, incorruptible – his Spirit lives in Christ:

Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven. But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. – Matthew 22:29-32

Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? – John 11:23-26

Concerning a pre-tribulation rapture, I am compelled to Jesus’ promise given to the church of Philadelphia in Revelation 3. The name of the church means brotherly love and the promise to keep them from “the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” is given because they have “kept the word of my patience”.

Since only this one church received that promise, I have deduced that all the other churches would become martyrs in the Great Tribulation as described in the various passages you have quoted. Perhaps most Christians will be martyred, but certainly the church of Philadelphia will be spared because He promised He would spare them.

In Matthew 24, when Christ appears visibly and physically as He left, the believers are gathered from the four winds, from “one end of heaven to the other”. I deduce they are already physically dead and their spirits in heaven, that this is the first resurrection. But it is not a rapture unless they are physically alive at the very end.

As my final point, the Great Tribulation is the outpouring of God’s wrath. Since I abide in Jesus and He abides in me, I do not fear God’s righteous judgment, I welcome it because it is His will. What matters is that His will is done, that His kingdom arrives - not whether I am beheaded in the process.

Thank you oh so very much for your kind encouragements!

I'm very glad you are enjoying this discussion and especially, that you are being uplifted because He is being praised! Your remark has thrilled my Spirit.

Thank you so very much for sharing your analysis and all those beautiful Scriptures!

What is the issue and the battle objective is the volition of the believer in choosing God, remaining filled with the Spirit, in order that the many rewards predestined for us and placed in escrow for us in heaven might be rewarded to us when we arrive. Where we grieve the Spirit, we don't get away with anything.....we still have salvation, but we lose many of those rewards which would have been ours had we remained faithful in all things through Christ continually.

It is rather difficult to get into the discussion of the ministry of the Holy Spirit without broaching the subject of "once saved, always saved". Personally, I've always liked the idea of heavenly hippies - that some may have big treasures in heaven and others, very little.

But concerning the doctrine of "once saved, always saved" I believe the Scriptures are clear that Christ will let nothing come between Him and a believer. However, I am also compelled that every believer has free will which God will respect and thus a person can, of his own free will, reject Jesus to his eternal peril. (Hebrews 10:29)

However, I do not believe this is easily done. Things originating from such as a bad dream, a temper tantrum, anger in grief would not be the same as a free will decision. The Spirit knows the thoughts and intents of the heart even if we do not.

My two cents...

Thank you sister Sandi. I wonder if you mind if I respond in like form?

Dear brother or sister in Christ, Welcome to the kingdom of God and the good life. Sister Sandi has shown that you can enjoy the good life by partaking of the divine nature. (2Peter1:4) There is an area of concern regarding Sandi's conceptualization of the good life. Unfortunately throughout history the Church has from time to time and place to place been plagued with some unscriptural ideas about the divine life and mans role in that divine life. Early on in Church history, at the very beginning of the kingdom of God, due in part to Greek philosophy, the idea that the material substance of the soul, (or body) was placed in antithesis to the spirit, (or mind). This sort of dualistic notion of man lead to a distortion in Christianity known as Docetic Gnosticism. Those who held to this philosophy denied the corporeal body of Christ. Now, I'm sure that Sandi is not implying that Christ did not have a human body but she probably is unaware that her statement,

As you mature in your walk with the Lord, you will be able to surrender to Him more fully. When you achieve this, you will be able to ignore the physical world around you and worship Him and pray to Him in the Spirit alone. This is where He wants you to arrive, because when you are there you are already in a state of being home even if you are still in the flesh:

incorporates the same sort of unhealthy dualistic notions that lead to the Docetic Gnostic heresy.

So what is the Scriptural view of the body and a Christian understanding of it?

Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

God saw all that He made, and behold, it was very good.
Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ?...Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

In fact, the centrality of the Incarnation, the very facts of the crucifixion and ressurection, revolves around the importance of the body. The author of the book of Hebrews understood this when he related Christ Himself to the Psalmist David when he said, "Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, but a body you have prepared for me".(Heb 10:5) We lose the power of Christianity when we fail to integrate our bodies into its practice. New life comes into the body when we enter the kingdom of God. If salvation is to affect our lives, it can only do so by affecting our bodies. Why? Because if we are to be participants in the reign of God we must perform actions and actions necessarily involve our bodies. Mental acts by themselves do not perform any actions and by themselves without bodily action are useless. Expressing my thoughts at this very moment involves the bodily exercise of typing. So let us put off any ideas of spirituality being some extra or "superior" mode of existence but rather an integrated life of mind, body, spirit, and soul. We are an embodied spirit whom God made very good and now alive to work in His material world.

Finally, a word about faith and knowledge. Faith is not opposed to knowledge, faith is opposed to sight. Faith is a kind of knowledge, a kind of apprehension of the invisible reality of God. Knowledge is the capacity to represent things as they are on an appropriate basis on thought and experience. Now that we have put off the idea of spirituality being some extra mode of existence we work our faith through knowledge as a body of truths common to all men. It is an apprehension of the actions to be performed, both individually and corporately, in the kingdom of God. While our individual actions may vary from person to person we must always be checking our individual actions and thoughts to the knowledge of the corporate plan of the kingdom of God. If we over-emphasize and spiritualize the individual actions and relations to the exclusion of the body of knowledge of the corporate responsibilities and truths we run the risk of being "a law unto ourselves" and rendering the word of God as incoherent. Since we know that God is Truth and that "all things work together" we must be careful to "represent things as they are on an appropriate basis".

Now, may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Thes 5:23)

Allen

Cvengr, thank you for posting those excellent additions to our discussion on the person and work of the Holy Spirit.

For sake of clarity, I think your point that "salvation itself is evidence of that indwelling [of the Holy Spirit]" is an excellent one, but it would help to have some scriptural passages to demonstrate this. Personally, I have not come across any passages that clearly promises the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon salvation, but the lack of scripture on this point does not mean that it does not occur.

However, we do have several Biblical accounts of people who put their faith in Christ without the benefit of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This took place while Jesus was on earth, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit was yet to be given. So it certainly is possible, from a scriptural standpoint, to believe in Jesus and yet not have the benefit of the indwelling of the Spirit!

Now, did that change after Pentecost? The answer is clearly "no." As evidence, we have Acts 8, where we have people who put their faith in Jesus, but did not receive the Holy Spirit! It was only after they were specifically prayed for that they received it:

Now for some time a man named Simon had practiced sorcery in the city and amazed all the people of Samaria.
He boasted that he was someone great, and all the people, both high and low, gave him their attention and exclaimed, “This man is the divine power known as the Great Power.”
They followed him because he had amazed them for a long time with his magic. But when they believed Philip as he preached the good news of the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Simon himself believed and was baptized [by water]. And he followed Philip everywhere, astonished by the great signs and miracles he saw.
When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them.
When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had simply been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus.
Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.
- Acts 8:9-17 NIV

In this passage, and many others, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is a distinct event from believing in the gospel and water baptism.

In fact, in charismatic/pentecostal meetings around the world, this is still the case. People will put their faith in Jesus, get water baptized, and will receive prayer for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It is never assumed that the Holy Spirit is given simply via belief in the gospel message.

I personally believe it is a terrible presumption to assume that someone has recieved the indwelling Holy Spirit upon their intellectual acceptance of Jesus. We have no passages of scripture that promise this, and it is not wise to believe in a promise from God that scripture does not fully support.

But scripture does support the idea that the Holy Spirit will be poured out if one specifically asks for Him in prayer, or if someone prays for you to recieve Him who already has the indwelling.

Now in Paul's epistles, he speaks as if the believers he is writing to recieved the indwelling of the Holy Spirit upon their acceptance of the gospel. However, this is not proof that it happens this way. The simple truth is we don't know how, exactly, these people received the Holy Spirit. Was it poured out upon them when they believed the gospel? Was it given to them as Paul and his helpers prayed for people? Paul doesn't say. And since Paul does not discuss exactly how people received the Holy Spirit, his letters do not give us any reassurance that the Spirit is given simply upon intellectual acceptance of Jesus.

However, as you correctly point out, Paul's letters do give us insight as to certain aspects of theology surrrounding the work of the Holy Spirit, especially in regards to sealing.

We are indwelt upon faith in Him. Each different believer has a different spiritual gift. Those gifts are spiritually discerned. Some spirtual phenomena might be accompanied by the spectacular, but too frequently those not mature might confuse the spectacular with spirtuality.

MY TWELVE THESES OF THE HOLY SPIRIT