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To: HarleyD; A.J.Armitage; OrthodoxPresbyterian
I thought this was rather interesting coming from a libritrian. Arguing man is basically evil seems to fly in the face of conservatism (wanting smaller government).

Oddly, there are many Libertarians, such as myself and those pinged above, who actually derive our Libertarianism from the pages of scripture. This of course includes the TOTAL DEPRAVITY of mankind. Much of the criticism i believe, can be addressed by first defining our terms.

What exactly does one mean by "EVIL"?

A second criteria and above all others, the most important, is the question "What does the Scripture say?" The Scripture indeed says that:

21) And the Lord smelled a sweet savor; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the groound any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
Genesis 8:21, KJV

The matter is, i believe, settled.

25 posted on 05/01/2004 11:52:21 PM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord; A.J.Armitage; HarleyD; maximillian; Hermann the Cherusker
Oddly, there are many Libertarians, such as myself and those pinged above, who actually derive our Libertarianism from the pages of scripture. This of course includes the TOTAL DEPRAVITY of mankind.

Exactly Correct, CDL, my Collegiate-Debater Friend.

The flaw in the above "Libertarian's" argument is that he presumes that Man is basically Good, or at least Neutral.

If this were True, we might try to find the Very Best of Men to lead us, and cast our hopes upon them. Papacy, anybody? Come one, come all.... belly up to the bar, and kiss the ring of the Vicar of Christ. Surely he won't lead us astray, even as he lays his suckling kisses upon the Satanic Bible (oops, I mean, the "Koran").

Nope. Sorry... that ain't the way that Calvinists do thangs.
We Calvinists are CYNICS to the core...
When we say "Total Depravity", WE MEAN IT.

The Rightful Calvinist approach to Governance is simply this: A Strong Magistrate is just a totally-depraved Man, with a lot of Power.

Certainly our Calvinist Baptist brethren should agree with this, having been persecuted throughout the Middle Ages and even into Colonial America.

Ultimately, the Calvinist Doctrine of Total Depravity forms the only legitimate and logical basis for a System of Governance: as Thomas Hobbes put it, "The War of All against All."

Calvinism is the only Philophical System which predicates its political philosophy upon the Evil of Fallen Man.

But Calvinism also assumes that Fallen Man is a COWARD.

These are admittedly extreme examples (I don't covet your goods, AJ; and I wouldn't trade my fiance' for any woman); but they serve to make the point:

Calvinist Political Theonomy is predicated upon the Evil and Selfishness of Man. But while Man is Evil and Selfish, Man is also a COWARD:

And that's the beauty of the Second Table of the Mosaic Law: It DEPENDS upon Carnal Selfishness, the only thing that you can COUNT ON from Fallen Man:

Calvinism assumes a Minarchist Social Covenant amongst self-interested Actors to prohibit Murder, Adultery, Theft, Fraud, and Abuse; and proving the Truth of Calvinist Theonomy and the Second Table of the Law, it just so happens that this is what self-interested Actors desire!!

But beyond such basic Mores of Self-Interest, it is beyond the power of The State to Create Morality.

Calvinism depends upon The Church, empowered by the All-Holy Spirit, for the inculcation of Genuine Virtue.

This is as it should be.

best, OP

26 posted on 05/02/2004 1:45:57 AM PDT by OrthodoxPresbyterian (We are Unworthy Servants; We have only done Our Duty)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord
Oddly, there are many Libertarians, such as myself and those pinged above, who actually derive our Libertarianism from the pages of scripture. This of course includes the TOTAL DEPRAVITY of mankind. Much of the criticism i believe, can be addressed by first defining our terms.

Or as my Pastor put it today , man is becoming more and more evil, only fools thing laws and regulations can stem that tide

32 posted on 05/02/2004 10:58:41 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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