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To: gbcdoj; nika; pascendi; american colleen; GirlShortstop; Canticle_of_Deborah
Nobody denies councils and popes are sometimes given the protection of the Holy Spirit. But these protections are not for their every utterance. Infallible utterances are severely circumscribed by content and manner. That is to say, they must concern matters of faith and morals, they must be presented to the faithful unambiguously and with clarity, and must clearly intend to bind the universal Church--an intention, by the way, made explicit by Paul VI in the Nota Praevia in which he specified that only those definitions openly declared as binding the universal Church would, in fact, do so. None was so declared. Therefore nothing was binding.

The confusion on this thread arises when discussion surrounds matters already previously settled by the Church and declared to be infallible doctrines--such as the citation you give about the governance of the Church by bishops and the pope. Such teachings would not qualify as definitions of any sort, since they had already been defined prior to Vatican II. Other doctrinal declarations--those which were, in fact, original--were never openly declared binding. Given this, what definitions may be said to have been actually made by Vatican II? The answer can only be--none whatsoever. There was not a single instance in which the Council openly declared its intention to bind the universal Church.

But there is a negative proof of this as well. For one thing, a great many of the most original and important declarations of the Council are shot-through with metaphoric language and subject to ambiguous interpretations. Such declarations cannot of their nature bind the intellect with certainty. Secondly, there has arisen after Vatican II a cottage industry of theologians who both deny and affirm that some teaching or other declared by Vatican II is infallible or not--or somewhere in between. This in itself proves that the original declarations were unclear and subject to misinterpretation and confusion. Such assertions are obviously uncertain and therefore fallible.

This is why those who defend the argument that Vatican II was a dogmatic council, cannot point to a single definition that was declared binding on the universal Church. Instead they talk about "religious assent"--which is the assent given to fallible doctrines. But such doctrines requiring "religious assent" do not bind in the way a truly infallible definition binds. For a Catholic to deny such "religious assent," for instance, would not make him a heretic, whereas denial of a dogmatic truth that is binding, certainly would. All of which boils down to this: however much someone may affirm Vatican II, the fact remains there is not a shred of evidence the council fathers were inspired by the Holy Spirit. This is because, despite its many novelties and insights, the Council made not a single utterance of its own which was, in fact, infallible.


190 posted on 04/12/2004 7:28:57 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
The Assumption

"...by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own authority, we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith."

Totally precise and completely unambiguous as to substance and intent; big anathema attached. This is an infallible statement. The documents of Vatican II do not contain anything remotely similar to this. Another one:

The Immaculate Conception:

"...by the authority of Jesus Christ our Lord, of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul, and by our own: "We declare, pronounce, and define that the doctrine which holds that the most Blessed Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege granted by Almighty God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the human race, was preserved free from all stain of original sin, is a doctrine revealed by God and therefore to be believed firmly and constantly by all the faithful." Hence, if anyone shall dare--which God forbid!--to think otherwise than as has been defined by us, let him know and understand that he is condemned by his own judgment; that he has suffered shipwreck in the faith; that he has separated from the unity of the Church; and that, furthermore, by his own action he incurs the penalties established by law if he should dare to express in words or writing or by any other outward means the errors he think in his heart."

Someone needs to step forward with something from the documents of Vatican II that looks even remotely like the examples above.
194 posted on 04/12/2004 8:00:41 AM PDT by pascendi
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