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To: gbcdoj
But to apply in practical terms: what, all told, did Vatican II define?

You claim one item above, according to your understanding of definitive. For the sake of argument, using your definition, is there anything else? What is the sum and substance of it?

What, altogether, are the things that the faithful are to believe after having read each and every one of the documents of Vatican II? If you were to ask them "what do you know now, what to you understand now", what should everyone be saying?
187 posted on 04/11/2004 12:46:36 PM PDT by pascendi
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To: pascendi
What you are saying is that by the very fact that an act or statement was put forth by a church authority, that very fact makes that act or statement definitive in the same sense as a dogmatic definition. That doesn't follow.

No, what I am saying is that as long as a council "directly and conclusively pronounces its sentence about a doctrine which concerns matters of faith or morals and does so in such a way that each one of the faithful can be certain of the mind of the Sacred Council" it is infallible.

You claim one item above, according to your understanding of definitive. For the sake of argument, using your definition, is there anything else? What is the sum and substance of it?

I would tentatively propose Dei Verbum §9-10 concerning whether Tradition and Scripture are one or two sources, the teaching of Lumen Gentium §22 on collegiality and the teaching of Lumen Gentium §25 on the extent of the infallibility of the Church: "[The Church's infallibility] ... extends as far as is necessary for religiously guarding and faithfully expounding the deposit of divine Revelation.". I am not sure whether these could be said to be manifestly infallible (cf. Can. 749 §3), though. I think these parts of LG could also be argued as definitions, although merely a repetition of previously defined teaching on the subject:

This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council, with that Council teaches and declares that Jesus Christ, the eternal Shepherd, established His holy Church, having sent forth the apostles as He Himself had been sent by the Father;(136) and He willed that their successors, namely the bishops, should be shepherds in His Church even to the consummation of the world. And in order that the episcopate itself might be one and undivided, He placed Blessed Peter over the other apostles, and instituted in him a permanent and visible source and foundation of unity of faith and communion.(1*) And all this teaching about the institution, the perpetuity, the meaning and reason for the sacred primacy of the Roman Pontiff and of his infallible magisterium, this Sacred Council again proposes to be firmly believed by all the faithful. (Lumen Gentium §18)

What, altogether, are the things that the faithful are to believe after having read each and every one of the documents of Vatican II? If you were to ask them "what do you know now, what to you understand now", what should everyone be saying?

Every teaching that concerns faith or morals within the documents of the Council.

188 posted on 04/11/2004 3:46:34 PM PDT by gbcdoj (in mundo pressuram habetis, sed confidite, ego vici mundum)
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