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To: nika
You understood me all right. Here is what I said originally:

"But if you think something the Council said IS infallible teaching--then it would be incumbent on you to tell the rest of us what you believe had suddenly been made binding on all Catholics. Name, if you will, the specific dogmatic teaching. REMEMBER, WE'RE NOT TALKING ABOUT DOGMAS ALREADY DECLARED BY PREVIOUS POPES OR COUNCILS WHICH MAY HAVE BEEN MERELY REPEATED by the bishops in the documents. We're talking about a newly declared doctrine that is suddenly made binding on all the faithful. It would be very strange to claim the Council had made such a pronouncement yet not be able to come up with a specific teaching that qualifies. Yet nobody ever does. Nor will you be able to do so, since no dogma was ever specifically pronounced by Vatican II."

You are right--I have no problem whatsoever with the Council's having REPEATED doctrines that formerly had been declared as binding by other councils or popes. But my challenge is fairly straight-forward. I ask you to show me exactly on what new doctrine the Council Fathers have bound the universal Church. And remember, no fair listing materials requiring "religious assent"--which is given to non-infallible doctrines--you've already tried that. We are talking about Vatican Council II's OPENLY BINDING US ALL INFALLIBLY. The operative word here is "openly"--publicly, specifically, directly, without ambiguity, with complete clarity--just as Pope Paul VI specified.


155 posted on 04/10/2004 6:45:42 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio

In this way the doctrine which the Ecumenical Council Vatican I had intended will be completed.... It is proper for this solemn Synod to settle certain laborious theological controversies about the shepherds of the Church, with the prerogatives which lawfully flow from the episcopate, and to pronounce a statement on them that is certain. We must declare what is the true notion of the hierarchical orders and to decide with authority and with a certainty which it will not be legitimate to call into doubt. (Paul VI, Opening speech to the Third Session)

This Sacred Council, following closely in the footsteps of the First Vatican Council...Continuing in that same undertaking, this Council is resolved to declare and proclaim before all men the doctrine concerning bishops, the successors of the apostles, who together with the successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ,(2*) the visible Head of the whole Church, govern the house of the living God.

And the Sacred Council teaches that by episcopal consecration the fullness of the sacrament of Orders is conferred, that fullness of power, namely, which both in the Church's liturgical practice and in the language of the Fathers of the Church is called the high priesthood, the supreme power of the sacred ministry. ( Lumen Gentium )

This was clearly infallible. Lumen Gentium §25 says concerning the infallibility of a Council:

This is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, whose definitions must be adhered to with the submission of faith.

To understand what definition means, we can consult the meaning of the word defines from Pastor Aeternus:

Rather, the word 'defines' signifies that the Pope directly and conclusively pronounces his sentence about a doctrine which concerns matters of faith or morals and does so in such a way that each one of the faithful can be certain of the mind of the Apostolic See, of the mind of the Roman Pontiff; in such a way, indeed, that he or she knows for certain that such and such a doctrine is held to be heretical, proximate to heresy, certain or erroneous, etc., by the Roman Pontiff . Such, therefore, is the meaning of the word defines. (James T. O'Connor, The Gift of Infallibility: The Official Relatio on Infallibility of Bishop Vincent Gasser at Vatican Council I pp. 73-74)

Therefore Lumen Gentium §21 contains an infallible definition.

157 posted on 04/10/2004 9:08:04 AM PDT by gbcdoj (in mundo pressuram habetis, sed confidite, ego vici mundum)
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