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To: nika
Excitement? Hardly. If anyone has been excited, it has been yourself, first claiming Vatican II was "infallible", then retreating to a lesser position, all the while hurling insult and invective. Fr. Most himself accuses those who deny the infallibility of the Council with "ignoring" its teachings. But this is a straw man, as I've shown. Traditionalists don't do this, they simply point out that assent to ambiguity is impossible--which is a reasoned response. Smoke and fog, after all, is a hard thing to get hold of.

As for "jumping ship", this is the kind of smug wisecrack that only illustrates your own intolerance for intellectual opposition. You say this first without having proved your case, and second without having a shred of real appreciation about where I am coming from in this exchange. I am fully congnizance of what teachings I must hold as infallible, the failure of any one of which would mean I have violated the faith and which would put me outside the Church. But failure to agree that Vatican II was infallible is certainly not one of these, despite all your huffing and puffing and eventual backtracking.
135 posted on 04/08/2004 10:32:16 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio
cognizance=cognizant
136 posted on 04/08/2004 10:34:25 AM PDT by ultima ratio
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To: ultima ratio; american colleen; GirlShortstop
Here is a link to a thorough refutation of the notion that Vatican II was not binding: Vatican II and its Authority
Here is an excerpt:

A truth is always taught infallibly by the ordinary magisterium before it is ever set forth in more solemn forms of exposition (if it ever is). However, this does not mean that a teaching of the ordinary magisterium is necessarily taught explicitly in words; it may be expressed by a doctrine implicitly contained in a Church practice which thereby receives the universal consent to qualify as definitive. What cannot be overlooked in this is that the Pope and the college of bishops at the Second Vatican Council gave a comprehensive presentation of the Catholic faith demonstrating in the process the doctrinal and moral unanimity of the united episcopate. This is sufficient to fulfill the criteria for an exercise of the ordinary and universal magisterium in matters that directly involve the teaching of doctrine. Indeed properly understood, the charism of infallibility is present whenever the episcopate in union with the Roman Pontiff teaches in concurrence on a point of doctrine whether they proclaim it by a recognizably definitive act or not. The Catholic Encyclopedia emphasizes this point in its article on General Councils:
All the arguments which go to prove the infallibility of the Church apply with their fullest force to the infallible authority of general councils in union with the pope. For conciliary decisions are the ripe fruit of the total life-energy of the teaching Church actuated and directed by the Holy Ghost. Such was the mind of the Apostles when, at the Council of Jerusalem (Acts, xv, 28), they put the seal of supreme authority on their decisions in attributing them to the joint action of the Spirit of God and of themselves: Visum est Spiritui sancto et nobis (It hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us). This formula and the dogma it enshrines stand out brightly in the deposit of faith and have been carefully guarded throughout the many storms raised in councils by the play of the human element. From the earliest times they who rejected the decisions of councils were themselves rejected by the Church... The infallibility of the council is intrinsic, i.e. springs from its nature. Christ promised to be in the midst of two or three of His disciples gathered together in His name; now an Ecumenical council is, in fact or in law, a gathering of all Christ's co-workers for the salvation of man through true faith and holy conduct; He is therefore in their midst, fulfilling His promises and leading them into the truth for which they are striving. His presence, by cementing the unity of the assembly into one body -- His own mystical body -- gives it the necessary completeness, and makes up for any defect possibly arising from the physical absence of a certain number of bishops. The same presence strengthens the action of the pope, so that, as mouthpiece of the council, he can say in truth, "it has seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to us", and consequently can, and does, put the seal of infallibility on the conciliar decree irrespective of his own personal infallibility.
A General Council in short by its very nature is protected from error in doctrinal matters. What this means is that any dogma or doctrine proclaimed by the Pope and the Bishops in union with him is properly understood as being set forth infallibly. To doubt this is to doubt the validity of the other twenty ecumenical councils of the Catholic Church. Also, even decisions not infallibly declared are still to be given a religious submission of mind and will (Matt. 10:40, Luke 10:16, John 13:20; Canon 752). Catholics who refuse to do these things are not Catholics at all but instead are schismatics.

141 posted on 04/09/2004 5:46:39 AM PDT by nika
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