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To: heyheyhey; johnb2004; Piers-the-Ploughman; ninenot; Hermann the Cherusker; saradippity; dsc; ...
This dude says first, Catholic Confusion at the Very Top, the "top" meaning the Holy Father. He put himself above the Pope in defining the doctrine of faith, that's outright heresy.

Two issues needed to be cleared up here.

First, was the Pope "defining the doctrine of faith"?

Second, was the Pope correct with respect to the specific issue by stating "Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it." Is his statement (if correctly quoted) consistent with the ordinary magisterium?

My answer to the first issue is, NO, the Pope was "not defining" the doctrine of Faith. He was speaking as a bishop, a theologian, and a priest at a General Audience in 1999, without invoking Papal Infallibility (ex-cathedra). Believe me, it worked out for the better in this instance, save some embarrassment.

In my view, the author actually extended the Pope utmost courtesy by using the notion of perhaps "confusion" rather than much stronger terms, thereby affording the beloved Pontiff benefit of the doubt in this matter. The tone of the article is quite sympathetic, appears to be more forgiving should the Pope had a "slip of tongue".

Answer to the second point, also NO. What the Pope said (if correctly quoted) on the issue is inconsistent with constant teaching of the Church, including Scriptures, Tradition, and magisterial teaching.

The author gave relevant references in the Scriptures as well as Pius X's Acerbo Nimis #3 and the CCC. By no means this short list is exhaustive on the teaching that there are human souls in Hell.

I will also give credit to Hermann the Cherusker, citing "O God, from whom Judas received the punishment of his guilt, and the thief the reward of his confession ..." (Collect of Holy Thursday and Good Friday, Roman Missal)

St. John Chrysostem gave the most dramatic expression ….. "The floor of Hell is full of skulls of bishops".

"The bottom line is, the Church has never sent any people to hell"

Well, not directly anyway, but there are people in Hell, who went there because of their own free will.

Upon death, individual judgment is rendered. Either Heaven or Hell, or delayed Heaven (Purgatory). In light of this, the Church knows there are people in Hell, apart from other magisterial teachings.

How does the Church know that? Because she has the Power to Bind and Lose -- a dogma of the Church.

What do you think happened to those publicly excommunicated when death came calling? Did they go to Hell or not? If one was to embrace there is no one in Hell, he must also deny the dogma to have the Power to excommunicate and that judgment stands in the eyes of God.

Then there are those who incurred Anathema ipso facto while still unrepentant at death.

Naturally, we all want the good news, and hope the merciful God will bestow special graces at the hour of our death, through the Church and the Last Rite, from which "Apostolic Blessing" comes with the Plenary Indulgence, thereby sending us the unworthy servants to Heaven immediately (if no Mortal Sins remaining). This is the Power to Lose that we all pray for.

But are we so foolish to deny the Church's Power to Bind? I would hope not.

In closing, consistent with constant teaching of the Church, there are people in Hell, and there will be people going there in the future. What the Church has avoided is specifically naming names as to who is in Hell, leaving that to speculation (if we so wish).

I sincerely hope you are not denying the dogma of the Power to Bind and Lose.

It is a matter of whether one would embrace the Ugly Truth instead of Pretty Lies.

86 posted on 04/02/2004 7:13:27 PM PST by m4629
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To: m4629
Excellent.
88 posted on 04/03/2004 10:05:10 AM PST by johnb2004
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To: m4629
Naturally, we all want the good news, and hope the merciful God will bestow special graces at the hour of our death, through the Church and the Last Rite, from which "Apostolic Blessing" comes with the Plenary Indulgence, thereby sending us the unworthy servants to Heaven immediately (if no Mortal Sins remaining). This is the Power to Lose that we all pray for.

But are we so foolish to deny the Church's Power to Bind? I would hope not.


We are in the presence of a another brevatio manus Domini....
90 posted on 04/04/2004 1:37:49 AM PST by quidestveritas
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To: m4629
was the Pope correct with respect to the specific issue by stating "Eternal damnation remains a real possibility, but we are not granted, without special divine revelation, the knowledge of whether or which human beings are effectively involved in it." Is his statement (if correctly quoted) consistent with the ordinary magisterium?

My answer to the first issue is, NO

Sounds like you know better than the Pope WHO is in hell. Would you mind sharing the information, please? Thank you.

92 posted on 04/05/2004 11:49:48 AM PDT by heyheyhey
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To: m4629; heyheyhey
By no means this short list is exhaustive on the teaching that there are human souls in Hell.

There is no Church teaching that there are souls in hell.

Pius X doesn't prove it, and John Chrysostom is speculating.

Saints are not infallible, only Popes are, and only when they speak infallibly.

No Pope has spoken infallibly that there are souls in hell.

97 posted on 04/05/2004 9:25:49 PM PDT by sinkspur (Adopt a dog or a cat from an animal shelter! It will save one life, and may save two.)
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