FR Religion Forum has Crossed the Tiber

Self

[ksen]

Well it looks to me like the FR Religion forum has crossed the Tiber and is now an official organ of the Vatican.

[nickcarraway]

I didn't get the memo.

[SoliDeoGloria]

A Catholic link that would support your statement SDG would be appreciated. - GirlShortstop

Gee... I've never had a Catholic ask me for a link to one of the most hotly debated subjects within the RCC: Ecumenism. So first, I'll just suggest that you type 'ecumenism Vatican council' into Google.

But, since you asked so politely for "A Catholic link", I'll give you the following which are all Catholic websites discussing the changes of Vatican II concerning Ecumenism:

Vatican II vs. Unity Willed by Christ
Vatican II & the current crisis of faith
The Principal Heresies of Vatican II

The First link is a rather good Essay on the topic, and the second link comes from a premier Catholic Apologetics Website. The third link I threw in just for grins and giggles. The first essay contains the following quotation:

"Lefebvre’s refusal to accept ecumenism originates in clear teachings from the Magisterium: the encyclical Satis Cognitum of Leo XIII (1896); the encyclical Mortalium Animos of Pius XI (1928); the Dec. 20, 1949, Instruction of the Holy Office regarding Ecumenism. The only ecumenism accepted by Lefebvre and his followers is that which strives for the unconditional return of the members of other confessions to the one Church of Christ, the Roman Catholic Church. This hardened sectarianism is precisely the kind of logic which Vatican II, through profound reflection on the nature of the Church, refused to accept. Though rooted in Tradition [sic] the scope of the Council’s reflection was without precedent in the history of Christianity. For integralists, ecumenism is one of the fundamental betrayals by Vatican II." (23)

(23) Service Internatial de Documentatoin Judeo-Chretienne, Rome, [English edition from Washington, D.C.] Vol. XXXII, No. 3, 1999, p. 22. (Emphasis added).

Heck! I bet there has been tons of debate here on FreeRepublic concerning this very issue! Here's just one good thread that addresses the controversy:

Vatican II & Ecumenism: What did the Council Really Say?

Hope this helps!

[VermiciousKnid]

Hey, you think Mel would like to live on Long Island's beautiful Gold Coast?

If he came here, I'd GLADLY ask him to build such a cathedral!

Regards,

[drstevej]

Bi-Costal Cathedrals, I think he has enough bucks to do that.

[GirlShortstop]

Salve Regina:  I believe that the Church teaches that they (the baptized) are baptized into the Church, but are protesting some parts of the faith. The Church calls them "our separated brethren."

SoliDeo:  I believe you are correct concerning the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church post Vatican II. Trent, Vatican I, and a whole host of former "traditional" doctrines are quite different in their approach.

GSS:  A Catholic link that would support your statement SDG would be appreciated...

But, since you asked so politely for "A Catholic link", I'll give you the following which are all Catholic websites discussing the changes of Vatican II concerning Ecumenism....
Heck! I bet there has been tons of debate here on FreeRepublic concerning this very issue! Here's just one good thread that addresses the controversy:

Vatican II & Ecumenism: What did the Council Really Say?

Hope this helps!

SoliDeoGloria, I appreciate you taking time to compose your response and share the links.  My polite (thank you!) request was somewhat selfish in that although I usually jump at a "good google challenge", it was made before my 40 winks, and I wanted to read more about what you'd stated about VatII rather than weed through google hits.  Thanks for your good deed!

The third link I threw in just for grins and giggles. The first essay contains the following quotation:  "Lefebvre's

LOL!  And that is exactly where I stopped reading... if I read that one, it'll be after I catch up on the spam in my in-box that needs attention :-)   I do not make time for reading schismatics' (such as Lefebvre) materials on Catholicism when orthodox things like JPII encyclicals, GK Chesterton, etc, etc. are available instead.  It could be said that my p.o.v. is analogous to an eager carpenter apprentice, learning at every opportunity, everything he can get his hands on about carpentry, finding it anathema being handed a volume of plumbing for his "leisure reading".  To quote someone learned whom I admire:  "Catholics need not schismatic advice ..."

I can give you a quick run-down on what I found about the links you provided:  

• Link 3's source is described thusly at First Things (Catholic):...Holy Family Monastery, a community founded by a self-proclaimed Brother Joseph Natale and "one of more than three hundred centers of traditionalist (or separatist) Catholicism" in the country...
• Link 2 is rather obscure and I've never used it before.  With one simple on-site search, I managed to produce a page full of hits, just chock-full of SSPX apologia.   Oh well.
• Link 1:   Vatican II vs. Unity Willed by Christ  By John Vennari, "FERRARA: I am writing, then, to defend nothing more or less than Roman Catholic traditionalism of the sort practiced by my friends Michael Matt and John Vennari....   
  I'll sit that one out.

Again SDG, I appreciate your well-intentioned efforts.  Unfortunately, in this case, it's as though you've handed me a plumbing book.
Pax et bonum.

[xzins]

I have no problem with sharing what I've found to be true.

[OLD REGGIE]

Keep shopping until you get the opinion you want. Hey! Isn't that what personal interpretation of scripture all about? We can all be our own little pope and hold the keys and EVERYBODY'S interpretation is correct and true, no matter how contradictory they are.

Dave knows very well I'm not a Protestant. He simply wouldn't give me the satisfaction of acknowledging it. (I had so hoped he'd play it straight. Sigh!

I wasn't shopping for anything, merely refuting your "sweet" and stupid assumption.

"I'll try to give your supreme highness proper respect from now on, my glorious Protestant brother and cultmaster of one."

FYI I am not a Protestant.

[OLD REGGIE]

Again SDG, I appreciate your well-intentioned efforts. Unfortunately, in this case, it's as though you've handed me a plumbing book.

Compare:

Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins...

Are they Catholic for you? Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pope John Paul II, Universal Catechism, 1990

All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

[GirlShortstop]

"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

I'll always bump the good words of JPII... thank you OLD REGGIE.

[OLD REGGIE]

I'll learn to preview my posts someday.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++=

Again SDG, I appreciate your well-intentioned efforts. Unfortunately, in this case, it's as though you've handed me a plumbing book.

Compare:

Boniface VIII, Unam Sanctam, 1302

Urged by faith, we are obliged to believe and to maintain that the Church is one, holy, catholic, and also apostolic. We believe in her firmly and we confess with simplicity that outside of her there is neither salvation nor the remission of sins...

Furthermore, we declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Pope John Paul II, Universal Catechism, 1990

All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers in the Lord by the children of the Catholic Church."

"Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth" are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements." Christ's Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church.

Are they Catholic enough for you?

[OLD REGGIE]

I'll always bump the good words of JPII... thank you OLD REGGIE.

Gee, I was hoping you might acknowledge that SoliDeoGloria was correct in her/his observation of the changes concerning ecumenism pre and post Vatican II.

[OLD REGGIE]

Thank God the Holy Spirit is the author of strife, discord and disunity. Otherwise I might have to swallow my pride and step down from my personal god pedistal.

Could you swallow your pride long enough to answer the question I posed on # 200 and which you appear to have overlooked?

(Salve Regina) LOL! Get a history book. The unbroken apostolic line is clear.

(Reg) My history book is missing the Pope from 304-308. Will you please fill in the blank for me?

[GirlShortstop]

**I'll always bump the good words of JPII... thank you OLD REGGIE. **

Gee, I was hoping you might acknowledge that SoliDeoGloria was correct in her/his observation of the changes concerning ecumenism pre and post Vatican II.

OLD REGGIE, it's only right that I let you know that my aims are not to please you.  :-)

From what I've read, I see no reason to elaborate on either of the Catholic contributions you've offered.  There's more for me to do today than try and "straighten out" another's perspective, or back track in an effort to figure out if I have made some mistaken comment here.
FReegards.

[SoliDeoGloria]

Gee, I was hoping you might acknowledge that SoliDeoGloria was correct in her/his observation of the changes concerning ecumenism pre and post Vatican II. - OLD REGGIE

I'm always a little surprised when Freeper Roman Catholics tell others that their church has always been consistent in its teachings. It's almost as if they're denying the existence of other Threads posted here where traditionalists and progressives argue over RC doctrine, or simply rail against the current Pope. In their desire to show a unified front, they ignore their own bickering, and hope that no one is actually reading the other threads!

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

In their desire to show a unified front, they ignore their own bickering, and hope that no one is actually reading the other threads!

Don't let them know that we know, they will quit and those threads are sooooooo fun to read. :)

BigMack

[Desdemona]

I'm always a little surprised when Freeper Roman Catholics tell others that their church has always been consistent in its teachings. It's almost as if they're denying the existence of other Threads posted here where traditionalists and progressives argue over RC doctrine, or simply rail against the current Pope.

Ah, well, see there is at least one group that has split off and doesn't think it has. The bishop leading that group was excommunicated, thus putting them outside the church. The thing is, that they do maintain the traditions and they do make some valid points, but when they deny that the current pope was validly elected and is the true successor of Peter, they put themselves in schism.

Everyone has problems in one way or another with how the pope has executed his office, but real Catholics accept him as our leader. That is how you tell the difference. There are a lot of people calling themselves Catholic that really aren't.

[AAABEST]

If you'd quit bashing us for a minute or two you'd see that many of us are very upset with what's going on in our church and agree with you on more issues that you realize.

Unless I have you wrong, at times it seems that instead of looking for good and fellowship, you'd rather pick up a baseball bat and devolve.

[SoliDeoGloria]

If you'd quit bashing us for a minute or two you'd see that many of us are very upset with what's going on in our church and agree with you on more issues that you realize.

Indubitably. If there's one thing that's well known here at FreeRepublic, it's that we non-catholics are quite upset with our own brethren for false doctrine. And we as well try to pose a unified front against you Catholics. I've seen some stuff posted by Old Reggie and BigMack on other threads that I would attack vehemently were others more capable not handling them. ;)

Unless I have you wrong, at times it seems that instead of looking for good and fellowship, you'd rather pick up a baseball bat and devolve.

Well, you probably have got it right. Every so often, I pick a fight when I should simply be shut'n up and staying low. Please accept my sincere apology if my attacks have belittled you in any way.