Posted on 03/11/2004 11:48:05 PM PST by Salvation
I think Bob's jumped the rails and gone sedevacantist or something like that.
What was true then is true now. Episcopalians believe in transubstantiation, Lutherans believe in consubstantiation, and other denominations believe that the Lord's Supper is merely symbolic.
The principle of "Scripture alone" didn't provide unified Christian teaching regarding this important topic. Nor has it ever regarding a whole range of teachings, ranging from the necessity of Baptism to double-predestination. This is important to keep in mind considering our Lord's express desire that "they may all be one." Has Sola Scriptura promoted Christian unity?
Church Fathers bump.
The Persons of the Trinity possess the Nature of God, just as all individual human persons possess human nature. Nevertheless, there are specific (logical) distinctions between the Persons of the Trinity that have been revealed to us by God, most notably the relationships between the Persons.
I don't see how what Bible one does or does not use is an issue here; in fact I was trying to eliminate that aspect of it altogether - so to make my point I used the Douay-Rheims, which is what I thought Roman Catholics use. Am I incorrect?
But to answer your question, if you mean in the context of 2 Timothy 3:16-17, I think it's safe to say that Paul was referring directly to the scriptures that he and his new congregations had, which was, first and foremost, the Jewish Tanakh, or Old Testament. In addition, since the letters to Timothy were probaby written after most of the epistles and gospels, I guess it's safe to say that many of those letters were in circulation as well, although of course not nearly as much so as the officially established scriptures of the OT.
My own personal opinion is that because all scripture is given by divine inspiration and God exists outside of time and knows the end from the beginning, He of course knew exactly what books would end up in the canon and as a result, those verses are meant for future Christians to understand as meaning the entire canon of scripture. Aha! you say, but it was the Roman Church that established the canon. :) Of course they did, and do I believe they were led by God? Absolutely.
So what exactly are we disagreeing about here? :) My only problem with tradition being taught and practiced in addition to scripture is if it is contrary to scripture. Surely Catholics and non-Catholics can agree upon that point.
Probably just as much unity as there was in the church at the time of the beginning of the Reformation without it. And I would hope that you won't tell me there is unity in the RCC today. I can just read the headlines to know better.
Thanks for defending my honor Reg.
Though I guess I'm the most "baptist" Catholic people are likely to meet.
I do find it interesting that you assume someone thinks a person is a Baptist if honesty is unexpected. Does Mack know you feel this way?
The problem is which canon to use, the Catholic version or the Protestant version. Which canon is implicitly referred to in the passages that you cited?
My only problem with tradition being taught and practiced in addition to scripture is if it is contrary to scripture. Surely Catholics and non-Catholics can agree upon that point.
True. But there is good Tradition and bad tradition. Scripture refers to both.
I remember hearing it on EWTN or Catholic Answers. I can't confirm it though.
Doctrinal unity, absolutely. There is a range of authority regarding Church teaching, however, ranging from "De Fide" dogma which must be believed by all Catholics through the more difficult to discern authoritatively "ordinary Magisterium" through theological consensus, speculation and opinion.
Ott outlines the various levels of certainty regarding Church teaching in descending order:
1) De Fide- Divinely revealed truths (infallible)
2) Church Doctrines (as infallible as above)
3) Teaching proximate to faith - generally regarded by theologians as a truth of Revelation but not yet formally promulgated by the Church.
4) Teaching pertaining to the faith - theological teaching whose truth is guaranteed by its intrinsic connection with the doctrine of revelation (theological conclusions) but not yet promulgated by the church.
5) Common teaching.
6) Theological opinion.
How about a question to answer a question? Could you generalize for me the reason(s) that the Church chose to retain the Septuagint OT? It is interesting to me, the fact that the Jews themselves did not ultimately see fit to include those extra books in their Tanakh, yet the RCC did.
Also, an example of a specific verse that has always bothered me -
If it is well written and to the point, that is what I wanted; if it is poorly done and mediocre, that is the best I could do.
And so ends 2 Maccabees. Well, there is one more verse after that, but my point is that the author hardly seems divinely inspired to me. Of course these were all men writing the scriptures, but God certainly would not have done anything poorly or mediocre and I find it surprising that such description found its way into inspired text.
True. But there is good Tradition and bad tradition. Scripture refers to both.
Sure, Jesus reprimanded the Jews of His time for placing too much emphasis on tradition, so much that they were distracted from scripture. And Paul, as aforementioned, instructs his readers to hold fast to that which they had been taught, either by word of mouth or the written word. And the word traditions used there means body of precepts, illustrations and expansions of the written law. This to me means just that - always grounded in scripture. Which goes back to what Jesus said in the first place - be careful about those traditions, make sure they always line up with scripture so that one isn't found to eventually be in error.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.