Replies

Vince is no help in the search for the truth of Christ Becky .

Courtesy ping?

I'm guessing that Becky is quite capable of gleaning what she finds relevant in my posts. Just because I don't agree with YOU 100% doesn't mean that 100% of what I say is false.

Whatever you might think about my ability to help in the "search for the truth", I'm pretty good at picking out flaws and logical inconsistencies.

For example, explain to me how

God is absolutely sovereign.

Sin is contrary to God's will.

You have yet to give a straightforward answer to this question, in all the different ways it has been asked of you by myself and others.

I'm magnanimous. I'm willing to accept "its a mystery" as an answer, if you will acknowledge the apparent contradiction between the two propositions.

I'm curious Malakhi. I've given you my explanation in 4344 and 4363. How would you explain this?

God is absolutely sovereign.

Sin is contrary to God's will.

Courtesy ping?

It might have just been an over-site Mal. It happens.

Sorry no ping.

Vince IMO you have no spiritual insight that is can in anyway can spiritually teach, or lead a Christian

This is not a personal observation , I think you are a nice guy ,but it is a biblical one

Luk 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

For example, explain to me how
God is absolutely sovereign.
Sin is contrary to God's will.

You do not think that God can hate sin and still use it for His plan?

I will follow this an article on this topic

Sorry my OS crashed .

The Sovereignty God and Human Freewill

(exert)

by Michael Bremmer

Christians acknowledge that God is sovereign, that He is King, Supreme Ruler, and Lawgiver of the universe. This we graciously believe. Yet do the meanings we give these words correspond to the reality of God's sovereignty represented in the Scriptures? What do we mean when we say God is sovereign? What is more important, what does the Bible mean by saying God is sovereign? Are Christians and God speaking the same language?

We like God reigning in a universal way, as in keeping hurricanes out to sea, or keeping the planets in their fixed orbits. We especially like God keeping traffic moving smoothly as we go to work. In these situations, we endure God on His throne, and if He obediently sits on this throne, built by our egocentric imaginations, we will lift holy hands singing, "Our God Reigns!" But what about having God on His throne in every detail of our lives, as ordaining the number of days we live, or what job we take, or what route to work we will drive tomorrow morning, or how much hair we are to have at age sixty? What about ordaining who will believe the gospel of Jesus Christ? Here, many Christians are quick to shove God off His throne crying, "We are free!" (Job 14.5; Prov. 21.1; Eph.1.11; Rom. 11.36; Acts 13.48; Jer. 10.23; Acts 16.14; 17.24-25).

Perhaps the problem is we associate human opinions or philosophical ideas to God's sovereignty, failing to consider seriously all that the Scriptures teach about God's sovereignty. More likely, however, is that our theology is so superficial that though we say God is sovereign, we are oblivious to the contradiction of denying His control over every aspect of our existence. Whatever the reason, only the Scriptures will reveal to us the meaning and extent of God's sovereignty.

By sovereignty of God I mean that God has ordained (or decreed), by an act of His sovereign will, all that has come to pass, all that is, and all that will come to pass, and apart from His knowledge, purpose, and predetermined plan, nothing will come to pass. God, says the Scriptures, "Works all things after the counsel of His will" (Eph. 1.11). The Scriptures do not say God works some things, or most things. Much less does it say only the good things -- it says all things. "Scripture everywhere affirms that whatsoever is and comes to pass is the realization of God's thought and will . . ." (Bavinck, The Doctrine of God. P. 369). In other words, no occurrence, large or small, occurs outside the sovereignty of God -- from the number of rain drops falling on your lawn during an afternoon thunder storm, to the dramatic events of the Desert Storm war, all are within, and part of, God's divine decree. As often commented, even if one molecule is roaming "free" in the universe, God is not sovereign.

Ten thousand ages ere the skies, Were into motion brought, All the long years and worlds to come, Stood present to His thought; There's not a sparrow or a worm, But's found in His decrees, He raises monarchs to their throne, and sinks them as He pleases.

Issac Watts

If God ordains all things, then he not only ordains the ends, He also ordains the means. As R. B. Kuiper has pointed out (The Bible Tells Me So, P. 37), not only does God ordain that a farmer's field yield so many bushels of wheat, God also ordains that the farmer plow and sow the field. Not only does God ordain a child's recovery of a serious illness, God also ordains that the children recover because of the parent's prayers. Realizing God ordains the means and the ends helps us to comprehend how our responsibility works within God's sovereignty. For example, Arminians object to the doctrine of election because it makes the preaching of the gospel unnecessary. However, God not only ordained who will be saved, God also ordained the preaching of the gospel to accomplish the salvation of His elect.

Furthermore, the sovereignty of God means all that He decreed will come about, and in the precise manner that He decreed. No one can ignore or reject His decree. Again, this does not suggest God compels anyone to act against their will. Man's freedom to act according to his choice is within God's decree. What it does mean is, all of what God has ordained will surely come to pass, and in the manner that God ordains. The Scriptures say, "The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans from His heart from generation to generation" (Ps. 33.11). (Isa. 14.27; Ps. 115.3; 135.6; Job 23.13-14; 42.2-3; Isa. 46.10).

God's sovereignty encompasses all that comes to pass, even sin; however, God never forces anyone to act contrary their will; therefore, He is not the author of sin. When we sin, we do so because we choose to sin. That God has even ordained sin will not sit well with everyone. Yet, if Jesus is in fact the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13.8) then sins appearance into the world and our redemption through the atonement, were decreed by God before creation and the fall; however, Scripture is clear that God is not the author of sin (Ja. 1.13).

Finally, God's sovereignty is not arbitrary. His rule is not one of some ill-tempered despot, frequently the caricature given by those denying God's sovereignty, rather His sovereignty is one of wisdom, holiness, and love. God is sovereign -- and He is our Father. Jesus, when referring to God's sovereignty, said, "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But the very hairs on your head are numbered. Therefore, do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows" (Mt. 10.29-21) (Ps. 92.15; 1 Jn. 1.5).

Deep in unfathomable mines Of never failing skill He treasures up his bright design And works His sovereign will

Copwer

The question that naturally arises from a Biblical view of God's sovereignty is, Do we have free will? Before we can adequately answer this question, we must first establish what we mean by free will. The Bible teaches that God is sovereign. Our conscious teaches us that we are able, and responsible for our choices-- and that our choices are just that, our choices. Any view of freewill must allow for both these elements. If freewill means the freedom to choose without any influence, "to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition," then the answer is no; we do not have freewill. If, on the other hand, freewill means the ability to choose what we want, then the answer is yes. The former view is known as contrary choice, the latter free agency.

Scripture on this from another author
. What does the scripture teach?

A. The Lord creates calamity.

Isaiah 45:7; Amos 3:6.

B. Genesis 50:20.

What did Joseph's brothers mean for evil?

What did God mean for good?

Was God the one in control of Joseph's brothers' sin?

If God was not in control of it, could Joseph say that God meant it for good? Would it not make more sense for Joseph to say that God worked through it turn it into good?

C. 1 Kings 22:19-23.

What kind of spirit did God send out?

What was God's purpose in doing so (v. 23)?

D. 1 Chronicles 21:1, 7.

Who moved David to number Israel?

What was God's response to the census?

Read 2 Samuel 24:1, 10.

Who incited David to number Israel?

Who sinned?

E. Job chapters 1 &2.

1:21--Who did Job attribute as the ultimate cause of his calamity?

1:22--Did Job sin when he attributed it to God?

2:10--Who should we accept adversity from?

2:10--Did Job sin when he said that adversity comes from God?

F. Job 42:11.

Why did Job's brothers and sisters console and comfort Job?

Who brought on this evil?

G. Lamentations 3:37-38.

Can an evil man say or do evil things apart from God commanding (ordaining) it?

What does it mean for both good and ill to go forth from God's mouth?

H. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12.

Why does God send a deluding influence?

Why does God want them to believe what is false?

How can a good God who hates sin, will that sin comes to pass?

A. The problem--verses which apparently contradict.

God commands Pharaoh to let His people go (Exodus 5:1), but then He hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let them go (Exodus 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8).

God commands us to love all people (Leviticus 19:18) and then causes hatred in people's hearts (Psalm 105:25; Isaiah 19:2).

God commands that the Sabbath be remembered (Exodus 20:8-11) and then causes them to forget it (Lamentations 2:6).

God does not take delight in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11), yet He says that He will delight in destroying Israel when they do evil (Deuteronomy 28:63).

God desires all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), and yet He does not save all people even though He has the power to do so.

God commands us not to murder (Exodus 20:13), but He had predestined the crucifixion of Christ which could not have happened apart from sin (Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28). In fact, it was God who ultimately killed Christ (Isaiah 53:10).

A. God never sins (Deuteronomy 32:3-4).

How do we know that God never sins?

Is the phrase, "God ordains sin," synonymous with "God is sinning?" Why or why not?

B. God is not the positive cause of sin.

1God is the ultimate cause of sin, He has ordained to happen and He makes sure that it does.

2God is not the positive cause of sin, rather He is the negative cause of sin.

Why does God get credit for when He cause us to do good, but He isn't blamed when He causes us to do evil?

1. God is the positive cause of good. He acts in us to cause us to do good. If He did not act, we, by nature, would never do good (Romans 3:10). Because good deeds are totally dependent on God acting in a positive or active way in our hearts, He gets all of the credit for it.

2. God is the negative cause of sin. God withholds the grace necessary to keep you from sinning, thereby bringing about His desired purpose, which included sin. When God ordains sin, He doesn't make your heart evil so that you will do what He wills. No, He orchestrates all circumstances so that in our flesh, sin will be the most desirable thing and then He withholds the grace that would prevent us from sinning. He simply acts in such a way that He insures that our sinful nature will carry out the sin that He desires. Therefore, while God is the ultimate cause of sin, He is not guilty of sin.

A good example of this is the sun. The sun is the positive cause of light, the sun makes light. However, it is also the ultimate cause of darkness. When the earth rotates and is no longer facing the sun, it no longer receives the suns lights. Therefore, the sun is the ultimate cause of darkness, though it is not the positive cause, rather it is the negative cause. The absence of the sun is what creates the darkness, but it would not be right to say that the sun is the morally guilty cause of darkness.

God cannot be blamed for sin.

Scriptures make it clear that there is no evil in God (Psalm 5:4; 92:15). Therefore, if scripture teaches that God is sovereign over evil, and it does, then this objection should not even be raised. For if the Bible doesn't have a problem with God being in control of sin and yet innocent, neither should we.

God does not approve of sin (Psalm 11:4-6; 34:16; Habakkuk 1:13).

God does not ordain sin for its own sake.

When God ordains sin it is not because He enjoys sin in and of itself, rather He has a greater good in mind. While we have evil intentions in our sin, God is always working for the greatest good (Genesis 50:20).

How can God be in control of sin and bring it about, but not be guilty of sinning?

If someone came and stabbed you in the stomach out of malice, that would clearly be sin. But if a surgeon cuts your stomach open to remove a tumor, no sin is present. Yet they both have done the same thing, they cut your stomach open with a knife. So what is different? The random attack was done out of malice, but the doctor has good intentions. Now, imagine that the doctor's knife is alive and it is evil and delights in causing you pain. We can see that even though the knife is delighting in cutting you open, the doctor would still not be morally guilty of sin because he is acting for your good.

God is absolutely sovereign.

Sin is contrary to God's will.

Do you think God was ever tempted or have the capasity to sin?

Or more to the point -

Could God violate the Unversals Laws and still be God?