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To: HarleyD; SoothingDave; RnMomof7; Quester
along with Malachi question; "If God is absolute sovereign why does He allow sin?" are some of the greatest mysteries of the Bible in any denomination.

Ahhh... You finally touched on what I was driving at.

I set up an apparent contradiction:

God is absolutely sovereign.

Sin is contrary to God's will.

As I see it, there are only two possible responses to this:

1. Both of these statements cannot be true.

2. Despite the apparent contradiction, both statements are true; how this can be is a mystery.

Now, Calvinists have asserted a similar apparent contradiction in the free will position:

God is absolutely sovereign.

Man has a truly free will.

Again, there are a number of ways to reconcile them.

1. Both cannot be true (free will is rejected).

2. Both are true; how this can be is a mystery (SoothingDave's position).

3. God's sovereignty allows for man's free will (my position).

I personally find the latter pair of propositions to be less problematic. In either case, though, you ultimately reach a point where you have to say that the ultimate resolution of the contradiction is a mystery beyond our understanding. And that you accept the truth of both of the propositions as axiomatic, rather than attempting to prove them.

4,356 posted on 04/15/2004 6:34:41 AM PDT by malakhi
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To: malakhi
Good post.

FWIW I agree with you #3 also.

Becky
4,357 posted on 04/15/2004 6:38:37 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain (Proud member of the Lunatic Fringe, we love Spam, Uzi's and Jesus)
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To: malakhi
1. Both cannot be true (free will is rejected).
2. Both are true; how this can be is a mystery (SoothingDave's position).
3. God's sovereignty allows for man's free will (my position).

Good summation. I would say, however, that #3 and #2 don't necessarily or always conflict. Or for that matter, I can even see where #1 (free will being curtailed or highly "influenced") doesn't conflict. Both number 3 and number 1 can be true at times in service to the position of #2.

Of course that's what you get for embracing a duality as a mystery. :-)

SD

4,359 posted on 04/15/2004 6:45:22 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: malakhi; SoothingDave; RnMomof7; Quester
I would refine your logic a bit:

Premise A: God is absolutely sovereign.

Premise B: Man has a truly free will.

Theology 1. Premise A is true. Premise B is false (Reform theology).

Theology 2. Premise A & B are true; how this can be is a mystery (SoothingDave's position).

Theology 3. God's sovereignty allows for man's free will (my position).

Theology 4. Premise A is false. Premise B is true. (Generally held by deists or others not part of this discussion)

If you’ll notice Theology 1 & 4 are absolutes. The issues surfaces between Theology 2 & 3. How do they differ from the premises stated?

4,363 posted on 04/15/2004 7:09:50 AM PDT by HarleyD (For strong is he who carries out God's word. (Joel 2:11))
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To: malakhi
#3 here. No surprise huh? lol
4,380 posted on 04/15/2004 8:36:26 AM PDT by CindyDawg
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To: malakhi; HarleyD
I personally find the latter pair of propositions to be less problematic. In either case, though, you ultimately reach a point where you have to say that the ultimate resolution of the contradiction is a mystery beyond our understanding. And that you accept the truth of both of the propositions as axiomatic, rather than attempting to prove them.

Harley made a very good post affirming this same sentiment (at least in the main). Good stuff, malakhi.

4,475 posted on 04/15/2004 2:50:20 PM PDT by the808bass
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