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To: SoothingDave
Frankly Dave I wonder if you know your own doctrine .

Is this true?

Q.575. Are these three things, namely: An outward or visible sign, the institution of that sign by Christ, and the giving of grace through the use of that sign, always necessary for the existence of a Sacrament?
Yes. The giving of grace. Not the earning of grace.

That grace is completely under YOUR CONTROL, not Gods

You make the decision to go to communion. You are in complete control of that grace ...you decide if you get the grace by going to communion or not

You have earned the grace by your action..God is your debtor

Did God know that Adam and Eve would fall ? Of course the Bible tells us that . Could God have prevented the fall had it been His will , of course. So by clear implication the fall was an ordained plan of God . He made man a free moral agent , Adam had a free will and could have obeyed, he chose to rebel . God placed the ability to rebel in the make up of men , but Adam ( unlike us) was created with a pure and innocent nature. He had a totally free choice uninhibited by the depravity that man inherits from him. He had the ability to obey and chose sin. God knew He would do that , He knew exactly how Adam would act under certain circumstances .. He could have changed the circumstances so that Adam would not have had an opportunity to rebel . He did not , by that action He ordained the fall

4,313 posted on 04/14/2004 7:49:38 PM PDT by RnMomof7 (Broomstick Jockey)
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To: RnMomof7
Frankly Dave I wonder if you know your own doctrine .

Yep. Understand it, too.

Is this true?

You betcha.

That grace is completely under YOUR CONTROL, not Gods You make the decision to go to communion. You are in complete control of that grace ...you decide if you get the grace by going to communion or not You have earned the grace by your action..God is your debtor

That's a perverse understanding. Why not answer what I asked yesterday? When your children came to you for lunch, were you indebted to them to give them food? Did that make them sovereign over you? Did they earn the food? Or did you give them lunch cause they needed it? And you loved them?

You might as well say that if I go out into the rain I have earned the rainwater that falls upon me and God is under my command cause my rainbarrel fills up.

So by clear implication the fall was an ordained plan of God .

So why does God then torment human beings for the consequences of His own plan? If people are born destined for hell, how is that their own fault? Would you contend that an eternity of damnation is a gift from God compared to non-existence?

SD

4,346 posted on 04/15/2004 6:12:37 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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