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To: ksen
Who says God “picks” people to go to Hell? Our sins send us there without God’s help. We all deserve Hell and the Lake of Fire. It is only when God’s Grace removes the fog of sin from our senses that we can have faith in Christ.

If God selects some people to give grace to, by inverse he has not chosen to give other people this grace. So God, in your estimation does indeed arbitrarily decide who gets saved and who doesn't.

There is no denying that we all deserve death. There is also no denying that we are saved by God's graciousness. What is denied is the arbitrariness of God's decision.

From your position, you are better off simply admitting the obvious and saying "Yes, God grants grace to some and not to others and we haven't got a clue why. By picking some for salvation God has chosen the others for damnation. He is sovereign and that is His business."

So to say He is cheating someone of an opportunity to go to Heaven because of withheld Grace means that God owed the person Grace and didn’t give it to the person.

We simply believe God gives grace to each of us. We can accept or reject it. That makes the fault for damnation ours and not that of God's ineffable choice. It just makes a whole lot more sense and dignity for God to behave this way.

That charge is always leveled at Calvinist theology. However, we do have Free Will. We are free to exercise our will within the bounds of our nature.

Which lead to damnation. And this is exactly how God made the people whom He will then damn. I fail to see how any Calvinist notion of Free Will can account for man's responsibility for his fate. Beacause you admit that all is God's Sovereignity. God chose to create certain men for damnation. Just say it. Don't muddy the issue by proclaiming a "free will" that can be of no consequence.

SD

2,050 posted on 04/06/2004 8:32:14 AM PDT by SoothingDave
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To: SoothingDave
So God, in your estimation does indeed arbitrarily decide who gets saved and who doesn't.

I don't consider God's own good purpose to be arbitrary.

From your position, you are better off simply admitting the obvious and saying "Yes, God grants grace to some and not to others and we haven't got a clue why. By picking some for salvation God has chosen the others for damnation. He is sovereign and that is His business."

Isn't that what we have been saying?

Unless you want to deny God's Omniscience, by the very act of Creation God has chosen who goes to Heaven and who doesn't.

That makes the fault for damnation ours and not that of God's ineffable choice.

God is not responsible for our sin. It is our sin that damns us. Just because God doesn't step in to stop Mr. X from going where he is naturally heading while God does do so for Mr. Y does not make Mr. X's damnation God's fault.

And this is exactly how God made the people whom He will then damn.

Wrong, God made Man in His own image and He saw that it was good. After that Adam fell and our nature became corrupted. Now we are after the likeness of our father Adam. The only person God created without mediation was Adam, and Adam was good when he was first created.

I fail to see how any Calvinist notion of Free Will can account for man's responsibility for his fate. Beacause you admit that all is God's Sovereignity....Don't muddy the issue by proclaiming a "free will" that can be of no consequence.

Then you fail to understand Calvinism. Our fallen nature has been so infected by sin that the Bible describes us as being dead. Every part of our being is affected by sin. Therefore every action we take and every thought we think is affected by sin.

Then God steps in and removes the obstacle to our believing in Christ. When the obstacle is removed we freely believe in Christ.

God chose to create certain men for damnation. Just say it.

Again, unless you want to deny God's Omniscience you believe the same thing.

2,077 posted on 04/06/2004 9:35:22 AM PDT by ksen (This day we fight! By all that you hold dear on this good earth I bid you stand, Men of the West!)
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