The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles)

AP ^ | 3/24/01

[RnMomof7]

One of the most interesting questions in my mind is God created the angels as perfect beings and they lived in a perfect environment. What was it that caused a third of them to go bad in a perfect universe? We know from the Old Testament (in Isaiah and Ezekiel) the sin was pride but not how pride entered a perfectly created Satan and the rest in a perfect environment. We also know from Ezekiel 28 that God was not the author of this evil. I think we would also agree that God knew sin would manifest itself in some of these creatures before they were created.

This is something serious Christians do speculate on

What we know for sure is that nothing exists that God did not create. So when God created the angels and man , He had to have given men a will that was capable of rebellion and sin . How can one be capable of something that does not exist within your nature? So God must have placed within man the ability to corrupt that which He creates.

God that knows all for all eternity , had to know that when He put this ability in His creations that they would rebel against Him .

[CindyDawg]

Courtesy ping?

It might have just been an over-site Mal. It happens.

[al_c]

Disclaimer: If you want on or off of this ping list, FReepmail me.

Happy Tax day, everybody. Heh heh ... "tax" kinda rhymes with "Acts" ...

O LORD, our Lord, how majestic is thy name in all the earth!

Thursday, April 15, 2004
Thursday in the Octave of Easter

First Reading: Psalm: Gospel:

Acts 3:11-26 Psalm 8:2, 5-9 Luke 24:35-48 We should love God because He is God, and the measure of our love should be to love Him without measure.  -- St Bernard

The following is, as usual, from The Word Among Us:

Could we even imagine what was in the hearts of the disciples when Jesus suddenly stood before them? How many of us would be just like them, filled with fear or maybe even disbelief? Jesus saw these reactions in them, and rather than condemn them, he calmed their fears and opened their minds to Scripture's promises about him. As he had done throughout his three years with them, even now he took them closer to him one step at a time.

Sometimes we think that it would be so much easier if Jesus were standing before us, explaining Scripture as he did for the apostles. But the truth is that Jesus really does want to speak to us just as powerfully. He wants to open our ears to hear his voice in Scripture. He wants to give us confidence that we can hear his Spirit whispering to us in the course of our day. And just as he did back then, he still wants to take us one step at a time. It may begin as a Scripture passage sticks in our minds or as a light suddenly turns on in us and we understand something more about Jesus. But each experience then builds on the next, so that we become more and more confident that Jesus is with us, giving us exactly what we need in every situation.

Can you believe that God loves you this much? Can you believe that he is willing to do whatever it takes for you to recognize his voice? Many of us live very busy lives that tend to move God to the side. But think of your closest friends. They mean so much to you in part because of the time you have spent together. It's the same thing with Jesus. He wants to become your closest friend, as well as your teacher, companion, and savior. So try to stop a few times during your day and spend just a couple of minutes with Jesus, pondering his words in Scripture. You may be very surprised by the changes you will experience!

"Thank you, Holy Spirit, that you are always seeking to draw me to Jesus through Scripture. I give you my heart and ask you to help me hear Jesus' voice in Scripture just as clearly as the disciples heard him in the upper room."

----------

God bless.

AC

[RnMomof7]

Sorry no ping.

Vince IMO you have no spiritual insight that is can in anyway can spiritually teach, or lead a Christian

This is not a personal observation , I think you are a nice guy ,but it is a biblical one

Luk 6:39 And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

For example, explain to me how
God is absolutely sovereign.
Sin is contrary to God's will.

You do not think that God can hate sin and still use it for His plan?

I will follow this an article on this topic

[HarleyD]

Of the premise:

Premise A: God is absolutely sovereign.

Premise B: Man has a truly free will.

Theology 1. Premise A is true. Premise B is false (Reform theology).

Theology 2. Premise A & B are true; how this can be is a mystery (SoothingDave's position).

Theology 3. God's sovereignty allows for man's free will (my position).

Theology 4. Premise A is false. Premise B is true. (Generally held by deists or others not part of this discussion)

If you’ll notice Theology 1 & 4 are absolutes. The issues surfaces between Theology 2 & 3. How do they differ from the premises stated?

If you don’t know by now then I would pick Theology 1-the Reform view.

I held Theology 2/3 for a long time but as you can see there are “mysteries” that you and Malachi among others find difficult to resolve. That’s because this position tends to be “theologically shallow”. If not could you please articulate the God’s sovereign/man’s free will differences between you and Malachi?

And what I was saying was a mystery in post 4363 was how a perfect creature like Satan in a perfect universe could be corrupted? If you could explain that I’m sure you would win the Nobel Peace Prize for Theology if there was one.

[CindyDawg]

Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?

Mal can speak for himself but this doesn't work for me caz I'm not blind.

[SoothingDave]

God is absolutely sovereign.

Sin is contrary to God's will.

This is the original set of premises. Do you reject number 2 here as well, or what is your explanation for the apparent conflict?

SD

[SoothingDave]

I held Theology 2/3 for a long time but as you can see there are “mysteries” that you and Malachi among others find difficult to resolve. That’s because this position tends to be “theologically shallow”. If not could you please articulate the God’s sovereign/man’s free will differences between you and Malachi?

What makes you think our position is "shallow"? And what makes you think there must be great differences between his and my posistions?

We essentially share the same position. He articulates that God freely suspends the operation of His Will insider the sphere of human existence (for the most part) so that man can be free to truly, freely pick good or evil. (At lest that is my understanding of it.)

My position is similar in this respect, except I recognize that there is a truth that God created and chose this world and not another. So that in some sense He did choose everything that happens. But that is from God's perspective. From our perspective, we are indeed truly free to choose good or evil. I believe our will is damaged, but not broken by original sin, where he does nto believe in such a thing. And I affirm baptism for the removal of OS, so we are put back into the originial state of creation. Which means, that once one is baptised, his and my position on the will are identical or darn close.

I think that if he looks outward to God choice at Creation-time he would have to say God chose what was going to happen sovereignly. And that when you look inward inside of creation, man has a true freedom. So it's a mystery.

SD

[SoothingDave]

You do not think that God can hate sin and still use it for His plan?

That has nothing to do with what was asked.

I will follow this an article on this topic

Just answer the question. Or don't you see the paradox?

SD

[malakhi]

How would you explain this?

God is absolutely sovereign.

Sin is contrary to God's will.

I believe that, in an act of His divine sovereignty, God empowered man with a truly free will. This free will is in practice quite limited in scope (we can't "will" things into existence, as God can). But within the scope in which we operate, our will, and thus our choices, are truly free.

I'll make one of my famously poor analogies here. We are on a ship. God's will is the ocean on which we sail. God created the ship and us. He is the captain of the ship. Within the confines of the ship, we can do whatever we like. We can obey our captain, or we can mutiny against him. We can work together, or we can fight one another. And we can be rewarded with dinner with the captain, or we can be thrown into the brig.

Contrary to what some Calvinists have expressed, I don't believe that the exercise of our will somehow diminishes God's sovereignty. Our will, freely operating within the ship, remains vastly smaller -- and contained within -- the will of God. We operate in the space He permits. He still steers the ship.

God's will for us is expressed in His commandments. We sin when we disobey Him, when we set our will against His. In this way, sin is contrary to God's will.

I believe a truly free will is necessary for there to be true moral responsibility for our choices and actions. You don't "punish" your computer for following its programming. If a piece of code fails, it is the fault of the programmer, not the software. For punishment of sin to be just, it must be for that which we are truly responsible. And we are only truly responsible if we truly had a choice.

[malakhi]

Vince IMO you have no spiritual insight that is can in anyway can spiritually teach, or lead a Christian

That's fine.

You do not think that God can hate sin and still use it for His plan? I will follow this an article on this topic

If you don't mind, I'd really rather you try to explain it in your own words. And "its a mystery" is an acceptable answer.

[malakhi]

I held Theology 2/3 for a long time but as you can see there are "mysteries" that you and Malachi among others find difficult to resolve.

My entire point is that the Calvinist position likewise contains an unresolvable "mystery". I thought you were acknowledging its existence, but perhaps I was mistaken.

[RnMomof7]

Sorry my OS crashed .

 


The Sovereignty God and Human Freewill

(exert)



by Michael Bremmer


Christians acknowledge that God is sovereign, that He is King, Supreme Ruler, and Lawgiver of the universe. This we graciously believe. Yet do the meanings we give these words correspond to the reality of God's sovereignty represented in the Scriptures? What do we mean when we say God is sovereign? What is more important, what does the Bible mean by saying God is sovereign? Are Christians and God speaking the same language?


We like God reigning in a universal way, as in keeping hurricanes out to sea, or keeping the planets in their fixed orbits. We especially like God keeping traffic moving smoothly as we go to work. In these situations, we endure God on His throne, and if He obediently sits on this throne, built by our egocentric imaginations, we will lift holy hands singing, "Our God Reigns!" But what about having God on His throne in every detail of our lives, as ordaining the number of days we live, or what job we take, or what route to work we will drive tomorrow morning, or how much hair we are to have at age sixty? What about ordaining who will believe the gospel of Jesus Christ? Here, many Christians are quick to shove God off His throne crying, "We are free!" (Job 14.5; Prov. 21.1; Eph.1.11; Rom. 11.36; Acts 13.48; Jer. 10.23; Acts 16.14; 17.24-25).

Perhaps the problem is we associate human opinions or philosophical ideas to God's sovereignty, failing to consider seriously all that the Scriptures teach about God's sovereignty. More likely, however, is that our theology is so superficial that though we say God is sovereign, we are oblivious to the contradiction of denying His control over every aspect of our existence. Whatever the reason, only the Scriptures will reveal to us the meaning and extent of God's sovereignty.

By sovereignty of God I mean that God has ordained (or decreed), by an act of His sovereign will, all that has come to pass, all that is, and all that will come to pass, and apart from His knowledge, purpose, and predetermined plan, nothing will come to pass. God, says the Scriptures, "Works all things after the counsel of His will" (Eph. 1.11). The Scriptures do not say God works some things, or most things. Much less does it say only the good things -- it says all things. "Scripture everywhere affirms that whatsoever is and comes to pass is the realization of God's thought and will . . ." (Bavinck, The Doctrine of God. P. 369). In other words, no occurrence, large or small, occurs outside the sovereignty of God -- from the number of rain drops falling on your lawn during an afternoon thunder storm, to the dramatic events of the Desert Storm war, all are within, and part of, God's divine decree. As often commented, even if one molecule is roaming "free" in the universe, God is not sovereign.




Ten thousand ages ere the skies, Were into motion brought, All the long years and worlds to come, Stood present to His thought; There's not a sparrow or a worm, But's found in His decrees, He raises monarchs to their throne, and sinks them as He pleases.



Issac Watts




If God ordains all things, then he not only ordains the ends, He also ordains the means. As R. B. Kuiper has pointed out (The Bible Tells Me So, P. 37), not only does God ordain that a farmer's field yield so many bushels of wheat, God also ordains that the farmer plow and sow the field. Not only does God ordain a child's recovery of a serious illness, God also ordains that the children recover because of the parent's prayers. Realizing God ordains the means and the ends helps us to comprehend how our responsibility works within God's sovereignty. For example, Arminians object to the doctrine of election because it makes the preaching of the gospel unnecessary. However, God not only ordained who will be saved, God also ordained the preaching of the gospel to accomplish the salvation of His elect.


Furthermore, the sovereignty of God means all that He decreed will come about, and in the precise manner that He decreed. No one can ignore or reject His decree. Again, this does not suggest God compels anyone to act against their will. Man's freedom to act according to his choice is within God's decree. What it does mean is, all of what God has ordained will surely come to pass, and in the manner that God ordains. The Scriptures say, "The counsel of the Lord stands forever, the plans from His heart from generation to generation" (Ps. 33.11). (Isa. 14.27; Ps. 115.3; 135.6; Job 23.13-14; 42.2-3; Isa. 46.10).

God's sovereignty encompasses all that comes to pass, even sin; however, God never forces anyone to act contrary their will; therefore, He is not the author of sin. When we sin, we do so because we choose to sin. That God has even ordained sin will not sit well with everyone. Yet, if Jesus is in fact the "Lamb slain before the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13.8) then sins appearance into the world and our redemption through the atonement, were decreed by God before creation and the fall; however, Scripture is clear that God is not the author of sin (Ja. 1.13).

Finally, God's sovereignty is not arbitrary. His rule is not one of some ill-tempered despot, frequently the caricature given by those denying God's sovereignty, rather His sovereignty is one of wisdom, holiness, and love. God is sovereign -- and He is our Father. Jesus, when referring to God's sovereignty, said, "Are not two sparrows sold for a cent? And yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. But the very hairs on your head are numbered. Therefore, do not fear; you are of more value than many sparrows" (Mt. 10.29-21) (Ps. 92.15; 1 Jn. 1.5).




Deep in unfathomable mines Of never failing skill He treasures up his bright design And works His sovereign will



Copwer




The question that naturally arises from a Biblical view of God's sovereignty is, Do we have free will? Before we can adequately answer this question, we must first establish what we mean by free will. The Bible teaches that God is sovereign. Our conscious teaches us that we are able, and responsible for our choices-- and that our choices are just that, our choices. Any view of freewill must allow for both these elements. If freewill means the freedom to choose without any influence, "to make choices without any prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition," then the answer is no; we do not have freewill. If, on the other hand, freewill means the ability to choose what we want, then the answer is yes. The former view is known as contrary choice, the latter free agency.


Scripture on this from another author
. What does the scripture teach?


A. The Lord creates calamity.



Isaiah 45:7; Amos 3:6.




B. Genesis 50:20.



What did Joseph's brothers mean for evil?



What did God mean for good?



Was God the one in control of Joseph's brothers' sin?



If God was not in control of it, could Joseph say that God meant it for good? Would it not make more sense for Joseph to say that God worked through it turn it into good?




C. 1 Kings 22:19-23.



What kind of spirit did God send out?



What was God's purpose in doing so (v. 23)?




D. 1 Chronicles 21:1, 7.



Who moved David to number Israel?



What was God's response to the census?



Read 2 Samuel 24:1, 10.



Who incited David to number Israel?



Who sinned?






E. Job chapters 1 &2.



1:21--Who did Job attribute as the ultimate cause of his calamity?



1:22--Did Job sin when he attributed it to God?



2:10--Who should we accept adversity from?



2:10--Did Job sin when he said that adversity comes from God?




F. Job 42:11.



Why did Job's brothers and sisters console and comfort Job?



Who brought on this evil?




G. Lamentations 3:37-38.



Can an evil man say or do evil things apart from God commanding (ordaining) it?



What does it mean for both good and ill to go forth from God's mouth?




H. 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12.



Why does God send a deluding influence?



Why does God want them to believe what is false?





How can a good God who hates sin, will that sin comes to pass?


A. The problem--verses which apparently contradict.



God commands Pharaoh to let His people go (Exodus 5:1), but then He hardened Pharaoh's heart so that he would not let them go (Exodus 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8).



God commands us to love all people (Leviticus 19:18) and then causes hatred in people's hearts (Psalm 105:25; Isaiah 19:2).



God commands that the Sabbath be remembered (Exodus 20:8-11) and then causes them to forget it (Lamentations 2:6).



God does not take delight in the death of the wicked (Ezekiel 33:11), yet He says that He will delight in destroying Israel when they do evil (Deuteronomy 28:63).



God desires all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9), and yet He does not save all people even though He has the power to do so.



God commands us not to murder (Exodus 20:13), but He had predestined the crucifixion of Christ which could not have happened apart from sin (Luke 22:22; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28). In fact, it was God who ultimately killed Christ (Isaiah 53:10).



A. God never sins (Deuteronomy 32:3-4).



How do we know that God never sins?



Is the phrase, "God ordains sin," synonymous with "God is sinning?" Why or why not?




B. God is not the positive cause of sin.



1God is the ultimate cause of sin, He has ordained to happen and He makes sure that it does.



2God is not the positive cause of sin, rather He is the negative cause of sin.



Why does God get credit for when He cause us to do good, but He isn't blamed when He causes us to do evil?


1. God is the positive cause of good. He acts in us to cause us to do good. If He did not act, we, by nature, would never do good (Romans 3:10). Because good deeds are totally dependent on God acting in a positive or active way in our hearts, He gets all of the credit for it.


2. God is the negative cause of sin. God withholds the grace necessary to keep you from sinning, thereby bringing about His desired purpose, which included sin. When God ordains sin, He doesn't make your heart evil so that you will do what He wills. No, He orchestrates all circumstances so that in our flesh, sin will be the most desirable thing and then He withholds the grace that would prevent us from sinning. He simply acts in such a way that He insures that our sinful nature will carry out the sin that He desires. Therefore, while God is the ultimate cause of sin, He is not guilty of sin.


A good example of this is the sun. The sun is the positive cause of light, the sun makes light. However, it is also the ultimate cause of darkness. When the earth rotates and is no longer facing the sun, it no longer receives the suns lights. Therefore, the sun is the ultimate cause of darkness, though it is not the positive cause, rather it is the negative cause. The absence of the sun is what creates the darkness, but it would not be right to say that the sun is the morally guilty cause of darkness.


God cannot be blamed for sin.



Scriptures make it clear that there is no evil in God (Psalm 5:4; 92:15). Therefore, if scripture teaches that God is sovereign over evil, and it does, then this objection should not even be raised. For if the Bible doesn't have a problem with God being in control of sin and yet innocent, neither should we.


God does not approve of sin (Psalm 11:4-6; 34:16; Habakkuk 1:13).


God does not ordain sin for its own sake.



When God ordains sin it is not because He enjoys sin in and of itself, rather He has a greater good in mind. While we have evil intentions in our sin, God is always working for the greatest good (Genesis 50:20).



How can God be in control of sin and bring it about, but not be guilty of sinning?



If someone came and stabbed you in the stomach out of malice, that would clearly be sin. But if a surgeon cuts your stomach open to remove a tumor, no sin is present. Yet they both have done the same thing, they cut your stomach open with a knife. So what is different? The random attack was done out of malice, but the doctor has good intentions. Now, imagine that the doctor's knife is alive and it is evil and delights in causing you pain. We can see that even though the knife is delighting in cutting you open, the doctor would still not be morally guilty of sin because he is acting for your good.

[RnMomof7]

Mal can speak for himself but this doesn't work for me caz I'm not blind.

Well there plenty of blind folks that read this thread , and as we see one recently fell

Can you be taught about Christ by someone that denies Him?

[RnMomof7]

Do you see that paradox that the betrayal of Christ and the crucifixion were sin ordained before the foundation of the earth?

[Quester]

I held Theology 2/3 for a long time but as you can see there are “mysteries” that you and Malachi among others find difficult to resolve. That’s because this position tends to be “theologically shallow”. If not could you please articulate the God’s sovereign/man’s free will differences between you and Malachi?

And what I was saying was a mystery in post 4363 was how a perfect creature like Satan in a perfect universe could be corrupted? If you could explain that I’m sure you would win the Nobel Peace Prize for Theology if there was one.

Are there no aspects of God's being and work which must be incomprehensible to our finite minds ?

Is one theologically inferior because one has not comprehended the incomprehensible ?

What should be the reasonable expectation of our understanding of God's being, will, and ways ?

Isaiah 53:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.

3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

4 Behold, I have given him for a witness to the people, a leader and commander to the people.

5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the LORD thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

[SoothingDave]

I asked you first.

SD

[al_c]

Sorry my OS crashed .

You're a Mac user, right? Are you still running OS9?

[SoothingDave]

When God ordains sin it is not because He enjoys sin in and of itself, rather He has a greater good in mind.

So God does ordain sin. Thank you. Finally, an admission.

God's sovereignty encompasses all that comes to pass, even sin; however, God never forces anyone to act contrary their will; therefore, He is not the author of sin. When we sin, we do so because we choose to sin.

Well, which is it? Did God ordain sin or did we choose to sin? It seems to me that if God decided that we were to sin, then our "choosing" to sin is but an illusion. God is the author of sin.

If God ordains all things, then he not only ordains the ends, He also ordains the means. As R. B. Kuiper has pointed out (The Bible Tells Me So, P. 37), not only does God ordain that a farmer's field yield so many bushels of wheat, God also ordains that the farmer plow and sow the field. Not only does God ordain a child's recovery of a serious illness, God also ordains that the children recover because of the parent's prayers. Realizing God ordains the means and the ends helps us to comprehend how our responsibility works within God's sovereignty. For example, Arminians object to the doctrine of election because it makes the preaching of the gospel unnecessary. However, God not only ordained who will be saved, God also ordained the preaching of the gospel to accomplish the salvation of His elect.

So God "ordains" both the means and the ends. But if the means are "good" then God is responsible, but if the means are "sin" then man is responsible. How is this logically consistent?

How can God be in control of sin and bring it about, but not be guilty of sinning? If someone came and stabbed you in the stomach out of malice, that would clearly be sin. But if a surgeon cuts your stomach open to remove a tumor, no sin is present. Yet they both have done the same thing, they cut your stomach open with a knife. So what is different? The random attack was done out of malice, but the doctor has good intentions.

Slicing human flesh is morally neutral activity, depending on intent. Evil acts, especially those pre-meditated are objectively evil. There is no way you can murder without being criminal. The act itself is objectively evil.

Why can't you just admit that it's a mystery?

SD

[CindyDawg]

What did you read that was out of context with scripture? I'm serious. Maybe I missed something. I don't mean by Calvinist interpretation either but that directly contradicted. No, ifs or buts.

I don't mean this in a bad way but I see no difference in you putting your faith in the organized spritual leading of Mr. Calvin than Dave would from his pope. I'm one of the rebellious I guess that doesn't put my faith in man because they are only human and can fail you, even if unintentional.

So, everything I read today I saw as supported and "comforted" by scripture. If not I would have spoken up.

As for Malakhi, I look at it that he's half way there so 50 % of the x he's got to be right . ( just teasing, Mal ). Engines aren't always at the front you know. He might have been in the lead today but who is to say Becky wasn't steering :')