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To: OrthodoxPresbyterian; Romulus
After the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70 (more than a million killed, sold into slavery, etc?), the place was an absolute mess. How many persons go MIA, how many documents are lost, how many properties are forgotten -- in the middle of a combination genocide/ransacking/slave-raid? The centrality of authority enjoyed by the Jerusalem Church in the days of James’ administration and the Jerusalem Council was no doubt tremendously damaged as a result of the Romans’ laying waste to the entire territory.

This presupposes several grevious errors of logic.

1) Jesus foresaw the utter destruction of Jerusalem (actually, His own divine punishment of Jerusalem). It is unlikely, and an implicit denial of His omniscence and soveriegn Providence, that He would have indicated to His Church to set up shop in a location that was about to be leveled by a Roman siege.

2) Conversely, it ignores the very reason He caused Himself to become incarnate into the Roman Empire at the very beginning of its existence, and not say, the Persian and Alexandrian Empires - the opportunity for the Church to spread across a large portion of the world in a peaceful environment.

3) It ignores the well documented historical practice of the Church conforming its adminsitrative districts to the imperial divisions, which also explains the primary missionary targets of the Apostles and their immediate successors being the administrative capitals of various Roman provinces - Antioch, Ephesus, Alexandria, Rome, Carthage, etc. The idea being obviously that a well formed plan of conquering the the provincial capitals and then radiating the faith outwards from them into the countryside, as raids are made from a secure fortress. With a large base population in a major city, it is only to be expected that the Christians would travel out to the countryside and spread the faith by their travels. It also gave Christians an easy method of making themselves invisible, since Christian traffic to and from the major cities would be unnoticed, while sudden massive focus upon obscure outposts would bring immediate suspicions.

4) It ignores the basic progression seen in the Gospels - the journey of Christ from Galilee to Jerusalem to die; and in Acts - the journey of the faith from Jerusalem to Rome to be spread everywhere.

But nature abhors a vacuum, and into this gap stepped the nascent Church at Rome – a candidate for central recognition given its placement at the capital of the Empire. It was known, after all, that Paul had come to his martyrdom at Rome; and considering that the great Vaticanus pagan cemetery likely contained quite a few “Peters” (being a common title given to the high prophets and magicians of the pagan mystery religions), it’s hardly surprising that a tradition would develop (a century-and-a-half or two later) as to “Peter’s” burial at Rome. That, however, does not vouch for the authenticity of the tradition.

Actually, it was known both Sts. Peter and Paul had died there, as the Epistle of St. Clement makes clear. Are you going to address this?

Also, please present your evidence about "Peter's" in Rome.

102 posted on 11/24/2003 11:38:39 AM PST by Hermann the Cherusker
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To: Hermann the Cherusker
1) Jesus foresaw the utter destruction of Jerusalem (actually, His own divine punishment of Jerusalem). It is unlikely, and an implicit denial of His omniscence and sovereign Providence, that He would have indicated to His Church to set up shop in a location that was about to be leveled by a Roman siege.

This is ridiculous.

It's like saying that Jesus would not have incarnated into a population which would generally reject His teachings and whose leaders would, ultimatly, collude with the Romans to kill Him on the cross.

Obviously, Jesus knew something that mere logic couldn't predict.

It is an error to think carnally in regards to the Church ... the Church is a spiritual entity ... founded upon the death of its leader (to the eyes of the world) ... and spread by the persecution of its followers.
Acts 8:1 And Saul was consenting unto his (Stephen's) death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles.


Acts 11:19 Now they which were scattered abroad upon the persecution that arose about Stephen travelled as far as Phenice, and Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to none but unto the Jews only.

20 And some of them were men of Cyprus and Cyrene, which, when they were come to Antioch, spake unto the Grecians, preaching the Lord Jesus.

21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.

23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.

24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.

25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul:

26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

106 posted on 11/24/2003 11:59:39 AM PST by Quester
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