Perspective: Die-hard Confederates should be reconstructed

St. Augustine Record ^ | 09/27/2003 | Peter Guinta

[Texas Federalist]

Just because the United States purchased the land does not mean they "own" it. Would you say that residents of "Louisiana" have no personal property rights because at one time the U.S. paid for the land. The U.S. bought the land and gifted it to its citizens. How the U.S. obtained the land is not relevant.

[stand watie]

when i see the words of GEN GRANT,

"had the late war been to perserve the institution of chattal slavery, i would have offered my sword to the south",

i feel VINDICATED that my ancestors served & died for the TRUE CAUSE of dixie LIBERTY!

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

EXACTLY!

ALL loyal southerns celebrate the HONORABLE service of your brave ancestor!

free dixie,sw

[ZULU]

I think Lincoln set the stage for the destruction of Constitutional rights and strict interpretation and states' rights - an evil precedent whose fruits we are witnessing today in the federal courts. He suspended habeas corpus, he "created" an constitutional concept that a state could not seceed, and he and his generals waged a vicious war against an unarmed civilian population. This set the stage for the concept of "total war" by attacking civilian populations in an effort to undermine the will of your opponent, rather than limiting violence to defeating your enemy's military force in the field. This led to the atrocities of the Boer War and WW1 and WW2.

Having said that, that occurred nearly 150 years ago. For some of today's Southerners to feel that they are "rebels" and not Americans is as nonesensical as modern black Americans demanding "reparations" for what was done to their great-great-grandfathers by people no longer alive.

The crew of the Hunley SHOULD be buried under two flags - the Confederate Flag for which they fought and died, and the American Flag, because after the war ended, nearly all Southerners were again considered Americans.

Southerners have fought with loyalty and distinction for America in all its many post-civil war conflcits - the Indian Wars out west, the Spanish American War, WW1, WW2, Korea, Viet Nam and in the Persian Gulf, to name a few. For anyone, North or South, to assert Southerners are not really "Americans" is the height of stupidity, or the fruit of treason.

The orderly and constitutional secession of a state by the action of its legislature is no way equivalent to anti-government action by individuals or groups of individuals which is truly treason.

(This should aggrevate people on both sides of the issue while pleasing no one - but its the truth.)

[stand watie]

i salute & remember the service of your brave ancestor.

ALL loyal southrons do so as well.

free dixie,sw

[af_vet_1981]

They'd like to rewrite history, demonizing Abraham Lincoln and the federal government that forced them to remain in the awful United States against their will.

It is a legitimate topic for historical debate. Abraham Lincoln was not successful in avoiding the only Civil War our nation suffered with horrendous loss of life and limb. I think he would have been a more successful President had he achieved the same results without the war.

[4CJ]

South Carolina forces fired on the US Steamer Star of the West

According to Charles R. Woods, 1st Lieutenant, Ninth Infantry report, the Star of the West had over 200 armed men, was a military expedition, pursuant to orders from the Headquarters of the Army dated 5 Jan 1861, Capt. John McGowan orders were 'to put the troops in Fort Sumter'.

They came like thieves: 'During the night ... our lights were all out ... During the whole trip downward the troops were kept out of sight whenever a vessel came near enough to us to distinguish them'.

Would you not fire on an ARMED intruder entering your property?

Finally Fort Sumter (US FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PROPERTY) was fired on by Seccessionists in April 1861.

Nope. The state of SC resumed possession & ownership when the federal government failed to abide by the terms of the original cession in 1805, which terms were referenced in the cession of the the shoal/harbor for construction of Ft. Sumter. Even after disputes were resolved in 1842, the federal government had failed to finish within the required 3 years and maintain a garrison.

Pro Union sentiment was very present in sections of Alabama, Arkansas, North Carolina, Tennessee & Virginia. Eastern Tennessee and western North Carolina were exceptionally troublesome areas for Confederate authorities who frequently complained that the populations of those areas were not friendly to the cause and interfered with Army recruiting efforts.

Virginia and several other states seceded after Lincoln called for troops to invade a sister state. There were MILLIONs of Northerners that sided with the Confederacy, Lincoln barely won a close election in 1864, and even then Gen Butler admitted that the miltary was used to prevent voting by pro-confederates.

[stand watie]

who are you to tell anybody to "shut up"???

as the Minister of DIS-Information for the damnyankee cause on FR, neither i nor any other southron patriot as been so RUDE.

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

AND he wanted to drive EVERY Indian OUT of the USA and/or KILL us all.

the tyrant, lincoln the first of DC,was nothing, if not consistent in his racism & HATEFULNESS!

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

tell me then, do you question the legitimacy of the damnyankee regime because MANY of their citizens couldn't participoate in THEIR government either???

free the southland,sw

[stand watie]

!!!!!

[Question_Assumptions]

I believe both the posts to which you were responding were intended to counter a particular individual in this thread that seems to think hate is a purely Southern problem. It was not even intended to condemn racism in one area as opposed to another.

While I'm sure that's the case, that's not how it looks, which is my point. By all means condemn northern racism. But if you don't qualify that with an acknowledgement of Southern racism, it looks like excuses are being made for Southern racism either through moral equivalency or by trying to deflect to issue onto someone else. I personally feel that a lot of the hard feelings here are caused by impressions more than facts and I'd like people to pay a little more attention to the impressions that they are giving others.

[stand watie]

read the words of GEN Grant,in post 282.

i did NOT make his words up for him.

free dixie,sw

[stand watie]

well said!

[XRdsRev]

Calm down and take your medicine.

There are very good records for the Point Lookout camp in the Clements Library at the University of Michigan. You might want to take a look at some of them. They are not 'Yankee" lies or forgeries. You might be surprised by what is in those records.

http://www.clements.umich.edu/Webguides/Schoff/NP/Point.

As for your careless allegation regrding the bones being found at Point Lookout, you might consider that the prisoner's cemetary has been moved 3 times since 1866 because of erosion. Given the crude methodology used in exhuming the remains back then, it is not at all unexpected to find forgotten remains washed up on occasion at the former burial site. Also, some of the remains found over the years were of pre-historic Indians, NOT Confederate prisoners. The number of deaths at Point Lookoput is a number derived from the records of the camp and despite your unfounded allegations otherwise, this number has never been proven not to be reasonably accurate.

[stand watie]

what an utterly STUPID & HATEFILLED post.

you should be ashamed.

free dixie,sw

[4CJ]

Why is it you know so much about your ancestor's service record, yet don't know when and in what regiment he served?

Not that I have to answer to you, but I did post the regiment. Are you a mindreader? Why would you think I don't know when he served? If I so desired, I could list his enlistment dates, the names of those in his regiment, the battles he fought in, when he was wounded and when he was killed. I could give you the names of his family members, their children, his ancestors back 10 generations or more.

Read the post again, I posted 4 that had blacks serving. And if I had my records in front of me I could post hundreds of documented black Confederate soldiers from TN, VA, LA and others.

[stand watie]

since you're so good at posting pictures of klansmen DIS-honoring our sacred battleflag (under which manby of my ancestors served bravely), why don't you post the pictures of them DIS-honoring the CROSS of JESUS CHRIST & the Star Spangled Banner too?

those pictures would be just as meaningful as the ones you posted.

free dixie,sw

[Question_Assumptions]

Just because the United States purchased the land does not mean they "own" it. Would you say that residents of "Louisiana" have no personal property rights because at one time the U.S. paid for the land. The U.S. bought the land and gifted it to its citizens. How the U.S. obtained the land is not relevant.

Amendment V of the Bill of Rights reads (in part):

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

The clear implication of the last two clauses is that the government can deprive a person of property through due process and can take private property for public use so long as the owner is compensated justly. For the government to have those powers means that property rights are not absolute but qualified. When I own a piece of property, it is both my property and a part of my town, county, state, and country. So the land is mine and also a part of my country. I can't unilaterally decide that my property is a part of the Bahamas because I like their tax structure better, a part of the UK because I think the US is illegitimate, or a part of Syria if I decided that the Islamofascists were right. And you can't have a modern nation or a civilization if every property owner is given that sort of sovereignty.

[Question_Assumptions]

The crew of the Hunley SHOULD be buried under two flags - the Confederate Flag for which they fought and died, and the American Flag, because after the war ended, nearly all Southerners were again considered Americans.

I think that's a good idea but I would suggest that it would be even better to use the CSA flag and not the battle flag (the battle is over and the battle flag, alas, has become associated with racism) or, even better, the state flags of those men who died.