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Perspective: Die-hard Confederates should be reconstructed
St. Augustine Record ^ | 09/27/2003 | Peter Guinta

Posted on 09/30/2003 12:19:22 PM PDT by sheltonmac

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To: capitan_refugio
the tardy Rhode Island and North Carolina,

Rhode Island and North Carolina were not "tardy." They were under no obligation to accept the dictates of the other states. They had the legal right to decline to ratify the Constitution forever.

1,461 posted on 10/25/2003 3:38:28 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: capitan_refugio
How's that for parsing?

It is not parsing. It is a dishonest, inaccurate rewrite which, if presented to a court as accurate, could get an attorney sanctioned.

1,462 posted on 10/25/2003 3:44:52 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: capitan_refugio
The Southern states did not seek to change the government of the United States.

Now we're getting somewhere. You're much more reasonable than the usual suspects on these threads.

They sought to withdraw from the government of the United States; they sought independence.

Those bastards. String 'em up.

Secession was a revolutionary act, not a legal one.

Agreed, however it was a revolutionary act that was always at their disposal per the agreement that they had entered. Under the Constitution (of 1787, since we're using the term wrt different docs now), the federals had no recourse to take action against a state should it decide that Union was no longer in it's best interest. Chase certainly had no power to amend or alter that agreement.

1,463 posted on 10/25/2003 3:58:48 AM PDT by Gianni
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To: capitan_refugio
In 1781, the former colonies were acting as a unified country in respect to their foreign policy and international relations.

|LINK|

Preliminary Articles of Peace : November 30, 1782

Articles agreed upon, by and between Richard Oswald Esquire, the Commissioner of his Britannic Majesty, for treating of Peace with the Commissioners of the United States of America, in behalf of his said Majesty, on the one part; and John Adams, Benjamin Franklin, John Jay, and Henry Laurens, four of the Commissioners of the said States, for treating of Peace with the Commissioner of his said Majesty, on their Behalf, on the other part. To be inserted in, and to constitute the Treaty of Peace proposed to be concluded, between the Crown of Great Britain, and the said United States; but which Treaty is not to be concluded, untill Terms of a Peace shall be agreed upon, between Great Britain and France; and his Britannic Majesty shall be ready to conclude such Treaty accordingly.

Whereas reciprocal Advantages, and mutual Convenience are found by Experience, to form the only permanent foundation of Peace and Friendship between States; It is agreed to form the Articles of the proposed Treaty, on such Principles of liberal Equity, and Reciprocity, as that partial Advantages, (those Seeds of Discord!) being excluded, such a beneficial and satisfactory Intercourse between the two Countries, may be establish'd, as to promise and secure to both perpetual

ARTICLE 1

His Britannic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, Viz New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free Sovereign and independent States; That he treats with them as such; And for himself, his Heirs and Successors, relinquishes all Claims to the Government, Propriety, and territorial Rights of the same, and every part thereof; and that all Disputes which might arise in future, on the Subject of the Boundaries of the said United States, may be prevented, It is hereby agreed and declared that the following are, and shall be their Boundaries Viz

ARTICLE 2

From the north west Angle of Nova Scotia, Viz that Angle which is form'd by a Line drawn due north, from the Source of St. Croix River to the Highlands, along the said Highlands which divide those Rivers that empty themselves into the River St Laurence, from those which fall into the Atlantic Ocean, to the northwesternmost Head of Connecticut River; thence down along the middle of that River to the 45th Degree of North Latitude; from thence by a Line due West on said Latitude, untill it strikes the River Iroquois, or Cataraquy; thence along the middle of said River into Lake Ontario; through the middle of said Lake, untill it strikes the Communication by Water between that Lake and Lake Erie; thence along the middle of said Communication into Lake Erie, through the middle of said Lake, until it arrives at the Water Communication between that Lake and Lake Huron; thence along the middle of said water communication into the Lake Huron; thence through the middle of said Lake to the Water Communication between that Lake and Lake Superior; thence through Lake Superior northward of the Isles Royal & Phelipeaux, to the Long Lake; thence through the middle of said Long Lake, and the water Communication between it and the Lake of the Woods, to the said Lake of the Woods, thence through the said Lake to the most Northwestern point thereof, and from thence on a due west Course to the River Missisippi; thence by a Line to be drawn along the middle of the said River Missisippi, untill it shall intersect the northernmost part of the 31st Degree of North Latitude. South, by a Line to be drawn due East, from the Determination of the Line last mentioned, in the Latitude of 31 Degrees North of the Equator, to the middle of the River Apalachicola or Catahouche; thence along the middle thereof, to its junction with the Flint River; thence strait to the Head of St. Mary's River, and thence down along the middle of St. Mary's River to the Atlantic Ocean. East, by a Line to be drawn along the middle of the River St Croix, from its Mouth in the Bay of Fundy to its Source; and from its Source directly North, to the aforesaid Highlands which divide the Rivers that fall into the Atlantic Ocean, from those which fall into the River Se Laurence; comprehending all Islands within twenty Leagues of any part of the Shores of the united States, and lying between Lines to be drawn due East from the points where the aforesaid Boundaries between Nova Scotia on the one part and East Florida on the other shall respectively touch the Bay of Fundy, and the Atlantic Ocean; excepting such Islands as now are, or heretofore have been within the Limits of the said Province of Nova Scotia.

ARTICLE 3d

It is agreed, that the People of the United States shall continue to enjoy unmolested the Right to take Fish of every kind on the Grand Bank, and on all the other Banks of Newfoundland; Also in the Gulph of St Laurence, and at all other Places in the Sea where the Inhabitants of both Countries used at any time heretofore to fish. And also that the Inhabitants of the united States shall have Liberty to take Fish of every kind on such part of the Coast of Newfoundland, as British Fishermen shall use, (but not to dry or cure the same on that Island,) and also on the Coasts, Bays, and Creeks of all other of his Britannic Majesty's Dominions in America, and that the American Fishermen shall have Liberty to dry and cure Fish in any of the unsettled Bays Harbours and Creeks of Nova Scotia, Magdalen Islands, and Labrador, so long as the same shall remain unsettled; but so soon as the same or either of them shall be settled, it shall not be lawful for the said Fishermen to dry or cure Fish at such Settlement, without a previous Agreement for that purpose with the Inhabitants Proprietors or Possessors of the Ground.

ARTICLE 4th

It is agreed that Creditors on either side, shall meet with no lawful Impediment to the Recovery of the full value in Sterling Money of all bond fide Debts heretofore contracted.

ARTICLE 5th

It is agreed that the Congress shall earnestly recommend it to the Legislatures of the respective States, to provide for the Restitution of all Estates, Rights, and Properties which have been confiscated, belonging to real British Subjects; and also of the Estates Rights and Properties of Persons resident in Districts in the Possession of his Majesty's Arms; and who have not borne Arms against the said United States: And that Persons of any other Description shall have free Liberty to go to any part or parts of any of the thirteen United States, and therein to remain twelve months unmolested in their Endeavours to obtain the Restitution of such of their Estates, Rights and Properties as may have been confiscated; And that Congress shall also earnestly recommend to the several States a Reconsideration and Revision of all Acts or I~aws regarding the premises, so as to render the said Laws or Acts perfectly consistent not only with Justice and Equity, but with that spirit of Conciliation which on the Return of the Blessings of Peace should universaly prevail. And that Congress shall also earnestly recommend to the several States, that the Estates Rights and Properties of such last mention'd Persons shall be restored to them; they refunding to any Persons who may be now in Possession the bond fide Price, (where any has been given,) which such Persons may have paid on purchasing any of the said Lands, Rights, or Properties since the Confiscation.

And it is agreed that all Persons who have any Interest in confiscated Lands, either by Debts, Marriage Settlements or otherwise, shall meet with no lawful Impediment in the prosecution of their just Rights.

ARTICLE 6th

That there shall be no future Confiscations made, nor any prosecutions commenced against any Person or Persons, for or by reason of the Part which he or they may have taken in the present War, and that no person shall on that account suffer any future Loss or Damage either in his Person, Liberty or Property; and that those who may be in confinement on such charges, at the time of the Ratification of the Treaty in America, shall be immediately set at Liberty, and the Prosecutions so commenced be discontinued.

ARTICLE 7th

There shall be a firm and perpetual Peace, between his Britannic Majesty and the said States, and between the Subjects of the one and the Citizens of the other, Wherefore all Hostilities both by Sea and Land shall then immediately cease: All Prisoners on both sides shall be set at Liberty, & his Britannic Majesty shall, with all convenient speed, & without causing any Destruction or carrying away any Negroes, or other Property of the American Inhabitants withdraw all his Armies Garrisons and Fleets from the said United States, and from every Port, Place, and Harbour within the same; leaving in all Fortifications the American Artillery that may be therein: And shall also order and cause all Archives, Records, Deeds and Papers belonging to any of the said States, or their Citizens, which in the Course of the War may have fallen into the hands of his Officers to be forthwith restored and delivered to the proper states and persons to whom they belong.

ARTICLE 8th

The Navigation of the River Mississippi from its Source to the Ocean, shall for ever remain free and open to the Subjects of Great Britain and the Citizens of the United States.

ARTICLE 9th

In case it should so happen that any Place or Territory belonging to Great Britain, or to the United States, should be conquered by the Arms of either, from the other, before the Arrival of these Articles in America, It is agreed that the same shall be restored, without Difficulty, and without requiring any Compensation.

Done at Paris, the thirtieth day of November, in the year One thousand Seven hundred Eighty Two

RICHARD OSWALD [Seal]

JOHN ADAMS. [Seal]

B FRANKLIN [Seal]

JOHN JAY [Seal]

HENRY LAURENS. [Seal]

[On the page of the original next after the above signatures, is the following, the brackets being in the original.]

Witness

The Words [and Henry Laurens] between the fifth and sixth Lines of the first Page; and the Words [or carrying away any Negroes, or other Property of the American Inhabitants] between the seventh and eighth Lines of the eighth Page, being first interlined CALEB WHITEFOORD

Secretary to the British Commission.

W. T. FRANKLIN

Sec. to the American Commission

Source:

Treaties and Other International Acts of the United States of America.

Edited by Hunter Miller
Volume 2
Documents 1-40 : 1776-1818
Washington : Government Printing Office, 1931.

USMARC Cataloging Record

1,464 posted on 10/25/2003 4:17:54 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: capitan_refugio
[CapnR] The Paris agreement did not grant sovereignty - it recognized the sovereignty and independece of the country.

Once upon a time, CapnR did not like what a formal written international agreement said. So he rewrote it to his liking and played make-believe. And he lived happily ever after.

"His Brittanic Majesty acknowledges the said United States, viz., New Hampshire, Massachusetts Bay, Rhode Island and Providence Plantations, Connecticut, New York, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Delaware, Maryland, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia, to be free sovereign and independent states, that he treats with them as such..."
-- Paris Peace Agreement

II.
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.
-- Articles of Confederation

1,465 posted on 10/25/2003 4:44:24 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: capitan_refugio
Your quote from Justice Scalia is quite correct. There in not one word in the Constitution about judicial review. We can all blame it on Marbury vs Madison, 1803. It is a funny thing about civilizations. They have a way about working out solutions to problems, more or less peacefully, and abiding by those decisions.

A proper method for "working out solutions to [constitutional] problems" is provided by the Constitution itself: it may be amended by the States.

Congress and the Executive branch could have ganged up on the Supreme court and put them in their place. But they didn't.

And the House and the Senate could have "ganged up on" Bill Clinton and thrown him out of office - "but they didn't." Does that somehow make perjury lawful?

Marbury vs Madison set a judicial precedent. And courts generally respect precedent (9th Circus Court of Appeals excepted), and provide strong rationale when overturning or modifying an earlier decision.

I would suggest that "judicial precedent" is an inadequate substitute for a written Constitution.

Late 18th century and early 19th century quotes notwithstanding, I was describing a present day "state of being." The Supremes are the final word when it comes to interpretation of the law.

Two points. First, we have been discussing 19th century events: your "present day 'state of being'" is irrelevant, while my "late 18th century and early 19th century quotes" are entirely relevant.

Second, since you appear to believe that "[t]he Supremes are the final word when it comes to interpretation of the law," I look forward to seeing you defend every dicision made by that court - including those that are "palpably" unconstitutional. You may wish to consider purchasing a suitable pair of kneepads: a Chief Justice Clinton is not an impossibility.

I am sorry if my words appear harsh, but you are advocating a position that is illogical, extraconstitutional, and dangerous...

;>)

1,466 posted on 10/25/2003 3:18:11 PM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?")
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To: Who is John Galt?
Stay off the peyote and you won't be inclined to post crazy talk!

Madison vs Marbury (1803) was the first time the US Supreme Court overturned a Congressional action as unconstitutional. I don't think it happened again until 1857 with the release of the "Dred Scott decision." And that was a doozy. As you have known for over 20 years, I am a strict Constitutional constructionist and distrust judicial activism. Salmon Chase's majority opinion in Texas vs White wasn't activism in the way that Roe vs Wade was. Chase, et al didn't create new rights or derive new rights the way the Roe court did. Chase reviewed that basis upon which the country was founded, the history of its governance, and the application of the Framer's intent, as best as they could determine it. If President A. Johnson or the Congress had been sufficiently offended by the decision, they could have taken action to neutralize it.

In any judicial system, respecting precedent provides for equal justice and avoids anarchy. Just look at the 9th Circus. That court is a joke because it is full of liberal, activist judges who fail to respect precedent.

I, for one, don't have to defend every decision of the Court. As a citizen, however, I have to, and continue to, try to elect officials who will appoint constructionist judges who will repsect the intent of the Constitutional and the rule of law. To do anything else would be to follow the primrose path to socialism and anarchy.

1,467 posted on 10/25/2003 7:16:05 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: Gianni
I have no problem with those who those who flat out say that the WBTS was a revolutionary war for independence because the southern leaders did not want to be part of the United States anymore. Revolution is a fundamental human right if your government is unresponsive to your needs or desires.

"It says right there in the Constitution,
It really is okay to have a revolution,
If the leaders that you choose,
Just don't fit the shoes!"
- Brewer and Shiply, "Oh Mommy, I Ain't No Commie"

Revolution is revolution. Revolution wrapped in quasi-legalism is pabulum.

1,468 posted on 10/25/2003 7:24:46 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: nolu chan
Be realistic. Little Rhodey and the Tarheels were bound to come over - it was only a matter of time. Rhode Island would have utterly failed as an Independent Republic. The residents in the north of the State, were looking for annexation by Massachusetts or Connecticut. I don't remember why North Carolina was tardy, but one of the historic documents you posted suggested that they were willing but had not yet voted on the matter.

In fact, none of the original 13 States ever conducted their affairs as a wholly independent, sovereign nation. Before the Treaty of Paris was ever inked, the 13 states had signed onto the Articles. They had ceded some degree of sovereignty to the Congress to conduct national affairs.

1,469 posted on 10/25/2003 7:34:29 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: nolu chan
"It is not parsing. It is a dishonest, inaccurate rewrite which, if presented to a court as accurate, could get an attorney sanctioned."

On the contrary. It is parsing that would bring tears to the eyes of any high school English teacher. Reducing complex sentences into simple and easily understood parts is an art!

1,470 posted on 10/25/2003 7:38:07 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: nolu chan
Did you take English in high school or college? Do you know how to use a common dictionary. Do you not understand that "namely" is synonymous with "that is to say"?

Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th Edition:

viz. abbrev videlicet; that is; namely

You don't need a legal dictionary. It is clear from the text exactly what is being said. The listing of the state names after "viz" was to clarify the mean of the term "the said United States."

1,471 posted on 10/25/2003 7:48:13 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: nolu chan
"II.
Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.
-- Articles of Confederation

You posted this. Have you ever thought about what it means? Have you considered its implications?

In so many words, it says "We states retain what we have not jointly delegated to the government of the United States." In a clear and unambiguous fashion you read the words that cede some level of sovereignty, freedom, independence, power, jurisdiction, and rights from the states to the national government.

It could not be simpler.

1,472 posted on 10/25/2003 9:01:47 PM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: capitan_refugio
It could not be simpler.

It is obviously far too difficult a concept for you to grasp. The people never delegate sovereignty to the government.

I wish you good luck at overcoming your reading disorder.

1,473 posted on 10/26/2003 12:06:26 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: capitan_refugio
Do you know how to use a common dictionary.

I know how to use a common dictionary. I know when not to use a common dictionary. When construing terms used in a formal legal document, I use a law dictionary.

1,474 posted on 10/26/2003 12:10:29 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: capitan_refugio
THE ELEVEN UNITED STATES

STATE OF RHODE ISLAND AND PROVIDENCE PLANTATIONS,
In General Assembly, September Session, 1789.

To the President, the Senate, and the House of Representatives of the eleven United States of America in Congress assembled:

"The critical situation in which the people of this State are placed engages us to make these assurances, on their behalf, of their attachment and friendship to their sister States, and of their disposition to cultivate mutual harmony and friendly intercourse. They know themselves to be a handful, comparatively viewed, and, although they now stand as it were alone, they have not separated themselves or departed from the principles of the Confederation, which was formed by the sister States in their struggle for freedom and in the hour of danger....

"Our not having acceded to or adopted the new system of government formed and adopted by most of our sister States, we doubt not, has given uneasiness to them. That we have not seen our way clear to it, consistently with our idea of the principles upon which we all embarked together, has also given pain to us. We have not doubted that we might thereby avoid present difficulties, but we have apprehended future mischief....

Can it be thought strange that, with these impressions, they [the people of this State] should wait to see the proposed system organized and in operation? -- to see what further checks and securities would be agreed to and established by way of amendments before they could adopt it as a Constitution of government for themselves and their posterity? ...

We are induced to hope that we shall not be altogether considered as foreigners having no particular affinity or connection with the United States; but that trade and commerce, upon which the properity of this State much depends, will be preservved as free and open between this State and the United States, as our different situations at present can possibly admit....

We feel ourselves attached by the strongest ties of friendship, kindred, and interest, to our sister States; and we can not, without the greatest reluctance, look to any other quarter for those advantages of commercial intercourse which we conceive to be more natural and reciprocal between them and us.

I am, at the request and in behalf of the General Assembly, your most obedient, humble servant.

(Signed) John Collins, Governor.

His Excellency, the President of the United States.

[American State Papers, Vol I, Miscellaneous.]

SOURCE: The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government, Jefferson Davis, Vol I, pp. 112-3.


Here are some other New England treasures:

NEW HAMPSHIRE CONSTITUTION

|LINK|

ESTABLISHED OCTOBER 31, 1783 TO TAKE EFFECT JUNE 2, 1784
AS SUBSEQUENTLY AMENDED AND IN FORCE DECEMBER 1990

BILL OF RIGHTS

Article 1. [Equality of Men; Origin and Object of Government.]. All men are born equally free and independent; therefore, all government of right originates from the people, is founded in consent, and instituted for the general good. June 2, 1784*

*The date on which each article was proclaimed as having been adopted is given after each article. This is followed by the year in which amendments were adopted and the subject matter of all the amendments.

* * *

[Art.] 7. [State Sovereignty.] The people of this state have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent state; and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right, pertaining thereto, which is not, or may not hereafter be, by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in congress assembled.

June 2, 1784

* * *

[Art.] 10. [Right of Revolution.] Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.

June 2, 1784

* * *

[Art.] 24. [Militia.] A well regulated militia is the proper, natural, and sure defense, of a state.

June 2, 1784

* * *


|LINK|

MASSACHUSETTS CONSTITUTION 1780

* * *

Art. IV. The people of this commonwealth have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent State, and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right which is not, or may not hereafter be, by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in Congress assembled.

* * *

The Frame of Government

The people inhabiting the territory formerly called the province of Massachusetts Bay do hereby solemnly and mutually agree with each other to form themselves into a free, sovereign, and independent body-politic or State, by the name of the commonwealth of Massachusetts.


THE REPUBLIC OF VERMONT

|LINK|

In 1777, Vermont's leaders finally declared independence of the New Hampshire Grants not only from Britain, but also from New York. Despite the unresolved conflict with New York and secret negotiations of some political leaders with the British in Canada (Williamson 1949), Vermont actively supported the Revolution. Yet, until its admission to the Union as the fourteenth state in 1791, the Republic of Vermont was effectively a sovereign state. Vermont set a significant precedent, first, because the state was established through secession from another member state of the Union, and second, because the same right to sovereign authority claimed by the Revolutionaries vis-à-vis the British Empire was invoked by Vermont's leaders to justify that secession.



1,475 posted on 10/26/2003 12:14:00 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: capitan_refugio
THE ELEVEN UNITED STATES

STATE OF RHODE ISLAND AND PROVIDENCE PLANTATIONS,
In General Assembly, September Session, 1789.

To the President, the Senate, and the House of Representatives of the eleven United States of America in Congress assembled:

"The critical situation in which the people of this State are placed engages us to make these assurances, on their behalf, of their attachment and friendship to their sister States, and of their disposition to cultivate mutual harmony and friendly intercourse. They know themselves to be a handful, comparatively viewed, and, although they now stand as it were alone, they have not separated themselves or departed from the principles of the Confederation, which was formed by the sister States in their struggle for freedom and in the hour of danger....

"Our not having acceded to or adopted the new system of government formed and adopted by most of our sister States, we doubt not, has given uneasiness to them. That we have not seen our way clear to it, consistently with our idea of the principles upon which we all embarked together, has also given pain to us. We have not doubted that we might thereby avoid present difficulties, but we have apprehended future mischief....

Can it be thought strange that, with these impressions, they [the people of this State] should wait to see the proposed system organized and in operation? -- to see what further checks and securities would be agreed to and established by way of amendments before they could adopt it as a Constitution of government for themselves and their posterity? ...

We are induced to hope that we shall not be altogether considered as foreigners having no particular affinity or connection with the United States; but that trade and commerce, upon which the properity of this State much depends, will be preservved as free and open between this State and the United States, as our different situations at present can possibly admit....

We feel ourselves attached by the strongest ties of friendship, kindred, and interest, to our sister States; and we can not, without the greatest reluctance, look to any other quarter for those advantages of commercial intercourse which we conceive to be more natural and reciprocal between them and us.

I am, at the request and in behalf of the General Assembly, your most obedient, humble servant.

(Signed) John Collins, Governor.

His Excellency, the President of the United States.

[American State Papers, Vol I, Miscellaneous.]

SOURCE: The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government, Jefferson Davis, Vol I, pp. 112-3.


Here are some other New England treasures:

NEW HAMPSHIRE CONSTITUTION

|LINK|

ESTABLISHED OCTOBER 31, 1783 TO TAKE EFFECT JUNE 2, 1784
AS SUBSEQUENTLY AMENDED AND IN FORCE DECEMBER 1990

BILL OF RIGHTS

Article 1. [Equality of Men; Origin and Object of Government.]. All men are born equally free and independent; therefore, all government of right originates from the people, is founded in consent, and instituted for the general good. June 2, 1784*

*The date on which each article was proclaimed as having been adopted is given after each article. This is followed by the year in which amendments were adopted and the subject matter of all the amendments.

* * *

[Art.] 7. [State Sovereignty.] The people of this state have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent state; and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right, pertaining thereto, which is not, or may not hereafter be, by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in congress assembled.

June 2, 1784

* * *

[Art.] 10. [Right of Revolution.] Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.

June 2, 1784

* * *

[Art.] 24. [Militia.] A well regulated militia is the proper, natural, and sure defense, of a state.

June 2, 1784

* * *


|LINK|

MASSACHUSETTS CONSTITUTION 1780

* * *

Art. IV. The people of this commonwealth have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent State, and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right which is not, or may not hereafter be, by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in Congress assembled.

* * *

The Frame of Government

The people inhabiting the territory formerly called the province of Massachusetts Bay do hereby solemnly and mutually agree with each other to form themselves into a free, sovereign, and independent body-politic or State, by the name of the commonwealth of Massachusetts.


THE REPUBLIC OF VERMONT

|LINK|

In 1777, Vermont's leaders finally declared independence of the New Hampshire Grants not only from Britain, but also from New York. Despite the unresolved conflict with New York and secret negotiations of some political leaders with the British in Canada (Williamson 1949), Vermont actively supported the Revolution. Yet, until its admission to the Union as the fourteenth state in 1791, the Republic of Vermont was effectively a sovereign state. Vermont set a significant precedent, first, because the state was established through secession from another member state of the Union, and second, because the same right to sovereign authority claimed by the Revolutionaries vis-à-vis the British Empire was invoked by Vermont's leaders to justify that secession.



1,476 posted on 10/26/2003 12:15:10 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: capitan_refugio
THE ELEVEN UNITED STATES

STATE OF RHODE ISLAND AND PROVIDENCE PLANTATIONS,
In General Assembly, September Session, 1789.

To the President, the Senate, and the House of Representatives of the eleven United States of America in Congress assembled:

"The critical situation in which the people of this State are placed engages us to make these assurances, on their behalf, of their attachment and friendship to their sister States, and of their disposition to cultivate mutual harmony and friendly intercourse. They know themselves to be a handful, comparatively viewed, and, although they now stand as it were alone, they have not separated themselves or departed from the principles of the Confederation, which was formed by the sister States in their struggle for freedom and in the hour of danger....

"Our not having acceded to or adopted the new system of government formed and adopted by most of our sister States, we doubt not, has given uneasiness to them. That we have not seen our way clear to it, consistently with our idea of the principles upon which we all embarked together, has also given pain to us. We have not doubted that we might thereby avoid present difficulties, but we have apprehended future mischief....

Can it be thought strange that, with these impressions, they [the people of this State] should wait to see the proposed system organized and in operation? -- to see what further checks and securities would be agreed to and established by way of amendments before they could adopt it as a Constitution of government for themselves and their posterity? ...

We are induced to hope that we shall not be altogether considered as foreigners having no particular affinity or connection with the United States; but that trade and commerce, upon which the properity of this State much depends, will be preservved as free and open between this State and the United States, as our different situations at present can possibly admit....

We feel ourselves attached by the strongest ties of friendship, kindred, and interest, to our sister States; and we can not, without the greatest reluctance, look to any other quarter for those advantages of commercial intercourse which we conceive to be more natural and reciprocal between them and us.

I am, at the request and in behalf of the General Assembly, your most obedient, humble servant.

(Signed) John Collins, Governor.

His Excellency, the President of the United States.

[American State Papers, Vol I, Miscellaneous.]

SOURCE: The Rise and Fall of the Confederate Government, Jefferson Davis, Vol I, pp. 112-3.


Here are some other New England treasures:

NEW HAMPSHIRE CONSTITUTION

|LINK|

ESTABLISHED OCTOBER 31, 1783 TO TAKE EFFECT JUNE 2, 1784
AS SUBSEQUENTLY AMENDED AND IN FORCE DECEMBER 1990

BILL OF RIGHTS

Article 1. [Equality of Men; Origin and Object of Government.]. All men are born equally free and independent; therefore, all government of right originates from the people, is founded in consent, and instituted for the general good. June 2, 1784*

*The date on which each article was proclaimed as having been adopted is given after each article. This is followed by the year in which amendments were adopted and the subject matter of all the amendments.

* * *

[Art.] 7. [State Sovereignty.] The people of this state have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent state; and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right, pertaining thereto, which is not, or may not hereafter be, by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in congress assembled.

June 2, 1784

* * *

[Art.] 10. [Right of Revolution.] Government being instituted for the common benefit, protection, and security, of the whole community, and not for the private interest or emolument of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, whenever the ends of government are perverted, and public liberty manifestly endangered, and all other means of redress are ineffectual, the people may, and of right ought to reform the old, or establish a new government. The doctrine of nonresistance against arbitrary power, and oppression, is absurd, slavish, and destructive of the good and happiness of mankind.

June 2, 1784

* * *

[Art.] 24. [Militia.] A well regulated militia is the proper, natural, and sure defense, of a state.

June 2, 1784

* * *


|LINK|

MASSACHUSETTS CONSTITUTION 1780

* * *

Art. IV. The people of this commonwealth have the sole and exclusive right of governing themselves as a free, sovereign, and independent State, and do, and forever hereafter shall, exercise and enjoy every power, jurisdiction, and right which is not, or may not hereafter be, by them expressly delegated to the United States of America in Congress assembled.

* * *

The Frame of Government

The people inhabiting the territory formerly called the province of Massachusetts Bay do hereby solemnly and mutually agree with each other to form themselves into a free, sovereign, and independent body-politic or State, by the name of the commonwealth of Massachusetts.


THE REPUBLIC OF VERMONT

|LINK|

In 1777, Vermont's leaders finally declared independence of the New Hampshire Grants not only from Britain, but also from New York. Despite the unresolved conflict with New York and secret negotiations of some political leaders with the British in Canada (Williamson 1949), Vermont actively supported the Revolution. Yet, until its admission to the Union as the fourteenth state in 1791, the Republic of Vermont was effectively a sovereign state. Vermont set a significant precedent, first, because the state was established through secession from another member state of the Union, and second, because the same right to sovereign authority claimed by the Revolutionaries vis-à-vis the British Empire was invoked by Vermont's leaders to justify that secession.



1,477 posted on 10/26/2003 12:16:46 AM PDT by nolu chan
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To: nolu chan
Are you having a temper tantrum, or are you wasting bandwidth on purpose?
1,478 posted on 10/26/2003 1:48:20 AM PDT by capitan_refugio
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To: nolu chan
"Videlicet" is not an exclusively legal term. The difference between "namely" or "that is" is miniscule.

But you want a defination from a law dictionary, so be it:

VIDELICET. A Latin adverb signifying to wit, that is to say, namely, scilicet. (q. v.) This word is usually, abbreviated Viz.
From the Bouvier Law Dictionary, 1856

Videlicet
Latin for "to wit" or "that is to say." "Viz.", which is the abbreviation of videlicet, is much more commonly used. It is often found in legal documents to advise that what follows provides more detail about a preceding general statement.
From Dahaime's online Law Dictionary

Which is exactly what I indicated in the earlier post.

"You lose." - Calvin Coolidge

1,479 posted on 10/26/2003 1:05:06 AM PST by capitan_refugio
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To: nolu chan
By the way, have you decided yet what the birthdate is of the United States? Hmmmmm ....
1,480 posted on 10/26/2003 1:10:14 AM PST by capitan_refugio
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1473 | View Replies]


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