A Matter of Common Sense - Gay Pride Parade Features Catholic Parish/Priest

San Francisco Faith ^ | September 2003 | Phil Sevilla

[Antoninus]

Nope. The society has degraded too far - it won't bear an antihomosexual government. Fact.

But it will bear a "pro-traditional family" government. All it takes is someone with the guts and the money to get their message out. Granted, such people are in short supply, but it CAN be done. It must be done. And I refuse to vote for anyone, Republican or Democrat who won't stand up to the Gaystapo.

[Antoninus]

By staying aren't you tolerating behavior that is wrong? This has gone on for years. And why didn't the Pope take a clear stand against this behavior, and the men doing it?

Real men and real women don't cut and run when the going gets tough. We stay and fight. That's what a lot of us Catholic's are doing. You would do well to watch the back door of your church as well. They go for the big dogs first. If the big dog goes down, they'll be coming for you too. Bank on it.

[Happy2BMe]

"And I refuse to vote for anyone, Republican or Democrat who won't stand up to the Gaystapo."

Consider yourself to have just voted for Bustabutt then.

[Jim Noble]

So you're equating the Pope to Stalin, eh?

Not at all.

I am equating the ignorance of those who say, "If only the Pope knew" to the ignorance of those who said, "If only Stalin knew".

What do you think-that the Vatican does not hear these things on a daily basis from the faithful in the United States? Do you seriously contend that the problem of blatant, open promotion of homosexuality by Catholic religious and some bishops in the United States is unknown in Rome?

Is that what you think the explanation is?

[SuziQ]

Maybe as a non-Catholic I only see the news, and miss something that only Catholics know?

Nope, most Catholics only know what they hear on the news as well, and that is the biggest problem. They barely make it to Mass once a week, and don't avail themselves of the opportunities that exist to learn about their rich Faith.

The media distorts the teachings of the Church, sometimes out of malice, but most of the time because the journalists are not Catholic and don't understnad what's behind the teachings. In the most recent events, the media has made it seem like MOST priests are abusers and that is just NOT the case. Most priests are faithful men who are stuggling with the work they do with Catholics who are more and more secularized each day. Some priests find it hard to preach the tough things that need to be said. They don't want to be thought ill of, and they'd catch hell from folks who want to do their own thing but still consider themselves Catholic.

The biggest problem in the Catholic Church in America is that the 60's saw the idealists getting into Chanceries to try to 'make a difference' after Vatican II. Unfortunately, their changes bore little resemblance to what Vatican II actually said, they just wanted change for change's sake. Those folks are getting older and close to retirement, Thank heavens, and there is a new generation coming up that is scaring them to death. These younger folks have been educated in Catholic Colleges which are rooted in solid Catholic teaching, not the touchy feely, New Age stuff that's been taught at too many nominally Catholic colleges over the last 30 yrs. These new folks will bring some sanity back to the running of Diocese's and folks in the pews will begin to see the differences in the next few years.

[Delphinium]

I would never leave the Lord. I am a member of His church which is not a man made church. I believe that there are members of His church in most denominations including the Catholic Church. I will never put any denominational name above the Word of God. Being faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ has nothing to do with being faithful to a religion. Yes we will see persecution, including the American church. Men will not endure sound doctrine, and many will be deceived, but the gates of hell will not prevail against the true church of Jesus Christ.

A few years ago the pastors of the church I attend got into a false doctrine. We had to finally kick them out of the church. We followed the Bible as are guide on how to handle the situation. It wasn’t easy at first because many of the members, including the elders were not used to following the Word, instead had always let feelings lead them. It did not happen over night, and most of the people in the church left before it was resolved. I love my new pastor, but I check his teaching by the Bible. If one of our elders, or ministers in the church started living a blatantly sinful life as this homosexual priest is doing, and the pastor or leaders wouldn’t follow the Bibles guide as to how to handle it, I would leave that particular fellowship. Yes I would try to change there minds somehow, but if they refused to act I would have to leave as the Bible clearly tells us to do.

Who do you get your direction from? The Pope, or the Bible? Which one has most influence?

[Delphinium]

Nope, most Catholics only know what they hear on the news as well, and that is the biggest problem.

What is the true story? Has the leadership of the Catholic church actually moved to kick out practicing, and professing homosexuals and child molestors? I heard on the news that the child molesting priests get a second chance if the are caught making that mistake? I have never heard what they do about homosexuals priests. How could this San Fransico church even exist?

The media distorts the teachings of the Church

I agree, just as they distorted what happened in Georgia this last week, or Mel Gibsons movie. Its not just the Catholic church, its any church that mentions Jesus Christ as their savior. I know that most priests are not abusers, its the ones that are allowed to exist that bother me.

I know somewhat about the changes in the Vatican II because I have a few close friends who attend the traditional Catholic church like Mel Gibson belongs to. Some of them think the mainstream Catholic church is in err, others aren't as harsh. I have other close personal Catholic friends who are pro-life activists with me who are always telling me how it bugs them that so many in their church are pro-abortion. One woman told me that most of the nuns in the convent she is closely associated with are pro-abortion. I know that the priest who was in this small town Catholic church for several years was very pro-abortion. Now they have a new one who is a wonderful man.

My problem is not with the people, but with the leadership.And I would say the same about any denomination that allowed this kind of behavior.

I am not a Catholic, and don't want to argue doctrine with any of you. This is a whole different subject. Lets say things change for the better? That does not change the fact that many Catholic leaders in high up leadership positions are getting away with covering up for serious sin. Who is allowing them to get away with this?

[nina0113]

...........yet the Catholic Church is still trying to figure out why they're losing members in droves.

Not in faithful orthodox parishes/dioceses we're not. St. Patrick's is cheek-to-cheek in the pews, standing room only, crowded out into the vestibule at almost every Mass. I can't speak for the 7:30 am, but the other 5 have always been jammed. Someone who attended RCIA when Father Scalia taught it said there were EIGHTY people in the class.

I don't think I could stand even to visit the SF diocese, let alone live there.

[SuziQ]

Has the leadership of the Catholic church actually moved to kick out practicing, and professing homosexuals and child molestors? I heard on the news that the child molesting priests get a second chance if the are caught making that mistake? I have never heard what they do about homosexuals priests

One problem that the Church has had for many years is that of 'collegiality'. Priests tend to stick up for each other and help each other out when they can because that is their support group. I don't know about before the 60's and 70's, but during that time of Vatican II reforms, the Chanceries began to rely on the Psychologists and Psychiatrists who set themselves up to 'help' those priests who had drinking problems, or problems of sexual nature. Dioceses would send priests who had been accused to get 'treatment'. These 'clinics' would pronounce him cured and send him back.

The problem came about when the priest would repeat his offense, and the Diocese would send him back to the clinic. The Bishops were tying to be supportive of their fellow priests as they always had, when they should have chucked them out on their butts! The abusers knew that the Bishop would do everything he could to try to help the priest, and these men took advantage of that. A lot of it has to do with the 'corporate culture' of the Diocese, which is the body responsible for the priests within it. The Pope won't get involved in the day to day workings of the Dioceses because he just can't. He doesn't have the time or energy for that. His job is to direct the Church, as a whole, and guide her in helping her members attain salvation. The Bishops do the day to day stuff, making appointments to parishes with the recommendations of their Personnel boards, and trying to encourage vocations within their Dioceses

Bishops are the ones who decide which seminaries their priest candidates will attend. Many got into the 'reforms' of Vatican II, and started accepting all kinds of new things at the seminaries. One of the biggest problems in the last 15 yrs. or so have been the boards that decide if a young man is ready to enter the seminary. These boards seem to be heavily populated by liberal Catholic laypeople, radical nuns and priests who tolerate (or worse) homosexual activity. Because of this, it has been difficult for a conservative man to get into the seminary in the first place, and if he does, he could be subject to propositions from the active homosexual seminarians. My brother-in-law is a priest, and has had to go to the local seminary and teach the Rector of the place how cows eat cabbage on behalf of a couple of the young men he has sponsored. He tells the young men not to put up with that crap, so they call him if there is a problem cause they know he'll back them up. He has the support of his new Bishop, that wasn't always the case with the old one. I don't believe the problem of homosexuals in the seminaries and the active priesthood is as bad as some would have you believe, but frankly I think one active homosexual priest is too many.

There is a new crop of Bishops who are as not into the 'collegiality' that the old ones were. They will not go along to get along, and I think we're gonna see some major changes over the next 10 yrs. or so because they'll be able to implement the changes to get the Church back to where it should be.

Sorry for the long answer. Hope that helped.

[Delphinium]

Your long answer doesn't bother me, but it doesn't answer my question. Why aren't homosexual, and child molesting priests, and nuns kicked out of the church?

The Pope won't get involved in the day to day workings of the Dioceses because he just can't. He doesn't have the time or energy for that?

Too bad he doesn't think this problem is serious enough for his precious time. These boys who have been raped probably wish he cared more about them. This is a serious problem that he should atleast give a sentence too. The sentence could be as simple as "Get them out of the Catholic church leadership!" You are telling me that the Pope is to busy to spend any energy, or time to say these simple words? His silence, or way of handling this terrible scandal has really hurt the credibility of the Catholic church.

I do appreciate his pro-life stand.

I am glad that I was not so indoctrinated into any religious denomination, or tradition that I couldn't break away. The only way to get to the Father is thru His son Jesus Christ. I feel for you because this must be a struggle.

[Antoninus]

What do you think-that the Vatican does not hear these things on a daily basis from the faithful in the United States? Do you seriously contend that the problem of blatant, open promotion of homosexuality by Catholic religious and some bishops in the United States is unknown in Rome? Is that what you think the explanation is?

I know what the explanation is already and it's far more complicated than you make it out to be. The Catholic Church is often presented by those outside of it to be an absolute monarchy. That's not true. The Pope can not simply start knocking bishops and cardinals out of their sees willy-nilly. We would have a full blown schism be for you could say "heresiarch."

The Church works in geologic time. The Pope's goal is to protect the unity of the Church while trying to minimize the damage that rogue bishops are doing and implementing a long-term solution that will preclude this problem from recurring in the future. If you think such deeply engrainged problems involving a 1 billion+ body spread out over the entire world speaking every language under the sun can be solved in a few months, you're daft. Add to this the fact that millions of people and billions of dollars are dedicated to undermining the Church by forces both inside and outside and the difficulty of the Vatican's position becomes plain.

Quite simply, the Catholic Church is the largest source of good on the planet. And there are many, many powerful people that would like to undermine or destroy that power.

That said, I'm sure the Pope goes to bed each night tormented with the notion that he can not do more to heal the wounds caused by scoundrels in the episcopacy.

[Delphinium]

That said, I'm sure the Pope goes to bed each night tormented with the notion that he can not do more to heal the wounds caused by scoundrels in the episcopacy.

He could speak out louder, and stronger.

[Coleus]

You're welcome.

H. E. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger
Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith
Palazzo del Sant'Uffizio
I-00120
Vatican City State

[SuziQ]

This is a serious problem that he should atleast give a sentence too.

Oh, the Pope has given WAY more than a sentence to this! He has spoken out about it quite a lot, you just don't hear it cause the media doesn't report it.

Believe me, there have been several Bishops who have probably had their butts chewed out over this, but they are the arbiter in their Dioceses. The Vatican doesn't own property in the US, the Bishops, through their Dioceses do, so the legal responsibility goes through them.

As bad as it is, this problem isn't as large as the media makes it out to be. If you just heard the news, you'd be under the impression that millions of kids are being raped and abused at the hands of thousands of Catholic priests. That is simply NOT the case! There are no more instances of this abuse in the Catholic Church than there are in any other large institutions. I daresay, there's more of a problem within the public school structure of the US, but the media has decided to bring all it's attention onto the Church because it has a beef with her. The most liberal papers got all over this like white on rice cause they sensed an opportunity to try to destroy the Church's credibility in speaking out on other moral matters. I don't believe it has done irreperable harm, but it certainly didn't help.

The Pope HAS acted by 'retiring' several Bishops who needed to go, and by appointing new ones who will be willing to get rid of the problem priests, but the nature of Ordination itself makes the problem more difficult. Holy Orders is a Sacrament, and cannot be tossed aside lightly. It is like the Sacrament of Matrimony. It can only be annulled (declared never to have been) when it can be shown that one of the parties didn't intend to follow through on the vows made. If the priest were ordained, and it could be shown that it was NEVER his intention to be chaste, then his Ordination can be annulled. In other cases, when he violates his vows in an egregious manner, and shows no intention of returning to them, he can be laicized. In both cases, he is no longer associated with the Church, and is on his own.

There's another thing to remember, when considering all these cases of abuse. At any time, the abused kids parents, and the civil authorities, when made aware of the abuse, could have filed charges against these men. In some cases, the police and DA's decided NOT to press charges cause they were friends with the priest. In the case of Geoghan and Shanley in Boston, they were big Democrat supporters, and the DA's didn't want to rock that boat. There is a LOT of blame to go around in the cases that have made headlines. A lot of it has to do with the way people used to view priests, as being up on some sort of pedestal. That is particularly true up here in the Northeast. I grew up in MS, and never had that notion. I have always respected priests and religious, but not to the point where I though they could do NO wrong. They are all human, after all.