Anglican church leader to summon bishops

AP | 8/08/03

[P-Marlowe]

I fully expect this Sunday to be a "church of the Laodiceans" Sunday...

Laodicea, the compromising Church. God will vomit them out of his mouth.

I believe the bible is clear that those who compromise with the world on matters of sin will not be welcome in his presence. The ECUSA has made its stand in defiance of the clear teachings of the Bible. They will not escape the wrath of God on this one. Those who condone such compromise will likely not be welcome in the presence of a Holy God.

[randog]

Can someone explain to me the relationship between the Anglican, Lutheran, and Episcopal churches? I find this topic (the homo bishop) interesting, but I get lost in the details. Thanks.

[gsrinok]

Can someone explain to me the relationship between the Anglican, Lutheran, and Episcopal churches

Not sure about the Lutherans, but I do know that their ceremonies are very similar to those of the Episcopalians and the Catholics.

To put it in simplest terms, the Anglican Church is another name for the Church of England, and the Episcopal Church is the American branch of the Anglicans. I'm not sure if branches in other countries (besides England) call themselves Anglican or Episcopalian. Regardless, these churches all have ceremonies similar to those of the Catholic Church, as they all have common roots from the Catholics.

[Fifth Business]

Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 01:39:04 EDT
From: David Virtue DVirtue236@AOL.COM
Subject: A CALL TO PROTEST

A CALL TO PROTEST

The Episcopal Church has allowed itself to be a "door mat" in the overall scheme of the homosexual community. It was reported many years ago that the ultimate goal of the homosexual planners in America was to have their lifestyle legislated by our Congress in Washington. To accomplish this goal, one of the logical steps that needed to be taken was approval, first, by the mainline Christian churches. Obviously the most vulnerable target appeared to be the Episcopal Church, with all of its liberal views.

It is sad to realize that this scheme has been cleverly executed. Future Federal legislation is not too far away, unless the conservative voice of America is heard.

Episcopalians can take action by BOYCOTTING the pews, this Sunday. A strong response, such as this, will give encouragement to others who may have the same views. The national news services should give this wide publicity.

END

From Virtuosity

[SoothingDave]

Can someone explain to me the relationship between the Anglican, Lutheran, and Episcopal churches? I find this topic (the homo bishop) interesting, but I get lost in the details. Thanks.

Anglicans are an members of the Church of England, split off from the Catholic Church by Henry VIII. Episcopalians are the Anglicans in America. Basically wherever Britain had colonies there are branches of the Anglican Church. The titular head of the Churhc is the Archibishop of Canterbury, but he holds no actual authority. (Unlike the Pope, who can hire and fire Catholic bishops and such.)

Lutherans are a variety of independent associations which stem from Martin Luther's revolt in Germany. They range from more conservative (Wisconsin or Missouri synods) to liberal (ELCA).

SD

[justanotherfreeper]

I am a Catholic, and I'm just as upset over some of the things that have gone on in the Catholic Church

In fact, you would think after the scandal in the Catholic Church -- which was clearly a homosexual problem -- the Episcopals would have been much less likely to confirm another potential child abuser into a position of authority. I'm Catholic myself, and the scandals have been so horribly painful for me. I can't imagine what good Christian Episcopals are feeling about all this. I've been praying for them, the Episcopals who have posted on FreeRepublic are so clearly devasted by this.

Why are the homosexuals so obsessed with taking over churches? That's the part I don't understand. What is it about Christian churches that compels the gays to come in and force their degradation on everyone else?

[randog]

Thanks for clearing that up.

[ken5050]

I'm going to wear a black moruning armband every Sunday from now on in church..

[Grampa Dave]

Many of us E's who have seen this train wreck coming are in the same boat with you. You told how you feel, and many of us agree with you.

The Episcopal Church has been my church for my adult life. Our bishop in N. California who cleared out some homosexual priests voted for this open Gay as a Bishop.

Right now, I'm just setting back and gathering information and watching what is happening here and around the world.

Here is an excellent alternative American Anglican site for those of us who want the other side of the story.

http://www.aplacetostand.org/dspnews.cfm?id=67

[John O]

And they can all go to hell.

I understand exactly how you feel. Rest assured that they will go to hell unless they repent and change.

'Homosexuality' is a sin and a sickness, it can be repented of and cured. It is not a doom. These people can choose to be made whole or they can choose to go to hell. We, as Christians however, have to continue praying for them to repent and be saved even if they do try to destroy our churches.

(The psalms show us that David prayed for the deaths of his enemies. I've found that sometimes people are so 'hazardous' to us and those around us that it would be better for all if they were dead, however it would be better still if they were converted and thus became 'un-hazardous'. In those events I pray that God will save them and change them, or remove them permanently. I've seen some changed and some removed. God's choice.

People such as this are the reason that God told the Israelites to utterly destroy the people who lived in the promised land before them, so that the sins of those people would not drag the Israelites to hell with them.

The 'homosexuals' are somewhat similar. Homosexuality is a contagious disease. They actively try to recruit people into their sin and as a result of that people are going to hell. They need to either repent or be removed. God's choice.)

[Grampa Dave]

The site below lists the vote by each Bishop, their name and where they are Bishops.

http://www.aplacetostand.org/dspnews.cfm?id=58

American Anglican Council's
A Place to Stand
General Convention 2003
8/07/03

Breakdown of Bishop's Votes for Gene Robinson

by Richelle Thompson

[ENS] Votes on the consent to the election of the Rev. Canon V. Gene
Robinson as bishop coadjutor of the Diocese of New Hampshire:

Yes

Adams III, Gladstone B. - Central New York
Alexander, John Neil - Atlanta
Alvarez, David - Puerto Rico
Bainbridge III, Harry B. - Idaho
Bennison, Jr., Charles E. - Pennsylvania
Bruno, Jon - Los Angeles
Caldwell, Bruce - Wyoming
Chane, John - Washington
Chang, Richard S.O. - Hawaii
Creighton, Michael W. - Central Pennsylvania
Croneberger, John P. - Newark
Curry, Michael - North Carolina
Daniel III, Clifton - East Carolina
Ely, Thomas Clark - Vermont
Frade, Leopold - Southeast Florida
Garrison, J. Michael - Western New York
Gepert, Robert R. - Western Michigan
Gibbs, Jr., Wendell N. - Michigan
Gregg, William O. - Eastern Oregon
Grew II, J. Clark - Ohio
Griswold, Frank - Convocation of American Churches in Europe
Gulick, Jr., Edwin F. - Kentucky
Howe, Barry R. - West Missouri
Ihloff, Robert W. - Maryland
Irish, Carolyn T. - Utah
Jefferts Schori, Katharine - Nevada
Jelinek, James L. - Minnesota
Johnson, Robert H. - Western North Carolina
Kelsey, James A. - Northern Michigan
Knudsen, Chilton R. - Maine
Ladehoff, Robert L. - Oregon
Lamb, Jerry A. - Northern California
Lee, Peter J. - Virginia
Leidel, Jr., Edwin M. - Eastern Michigan
MacDonald, Mark L. - Alaska
Marshall, Paul V. - Bethlehem
Maze, Larry E. - Arkansas
McKelvey, Jack M. - Rochester
Moody, Robert M. - Oklahoma
Persell, William D. - Chicago
Plummer, Steven T. - Navajoland Area Mission
Powell, F. Neff - Southwestern Virginia
Robertson, Creighton L. - South Dakota
Sauls, Stacy F. - Lexington
Scarfe, Alan - Iowa
Shahan, Robert R. - Arizona
Shand, James J. - Easton
Shaw III, SSJE, M. Thomas - Massachusetts
Shimpfky, Richard L. - El Camino Real
Sisk, Mark S. - New York
Smalley, William E. - Kansas
Smith, Andrew D. - Connecticut
Smith, George Wayne - Missouri
Swing, William E. - California
Theuner, Douglas E. - New Hampshire
Waggoner, James Edward - Spokane
Walker, Jr., Orris G. - Long Island
Warner, Vincent W. - Olympia
Waynick, Catherine M. - Indianapolis
Winterrowd, William J. - Colorado
Wolf, Geralyn - Rhode Island
Wright, Wayne P. - Delaware

No

Ackerman, Keith L. - Quincy
Adams, Jr., James M. - Western Kansas
Allen, Lloyd - Honduras
Bane, Jr., David C. - Southern Virginia
Beckwith, Peter H. - Springfield
Daniels, Theodore A. - Virgin Islands
Duncan II, Philip M. - Central Gulf Coast
Duncan, Jr., Robert W. - Pittsburgh
Duque-Gomez, Francisco - Colombia
Duracin, Jean - Haiti
Fairfield, Andrew H. - North Dakota
Folts, James E. - West Texas
Gray III, Duncan Montgomery - Mississippi
Henderson, Dorsey - Upper South Carolina
Herlong, Bertram N. - Tennessee
Herzog, Daniel W. - Albany
Holguin, Julio C. - Dominican Republic
Howe, John - Central Florida
Hughes, Gethin B. - San Diego
Iker, Jack - Fort Worth
Jacobus, Russell E. - Fond du Lac
Jecko, Stephen H. - Florida
Jenkins III, Charles E. - Louisiana
Johnson, Don E. - West Tennessee
Kelshaw, Terence - Rio Grande
Klusmeyer, W. Michie - West Virginia
Krotz, James E. - Nebraska
Lai, David Jung-Hsin - Taiwan
Lipscomb, John B. - Southwest Florida
Little II, Edward S. - Northern Indiana
Louttit, Jr., Henry - Georgia
MacPherson, D. Bruce - Western Louisiana
Morante, Alfredo - Ecuador
Ohl, Jr., C. Wallis - Northwest Texas
Parsley, Jr., Henry N. - Alabama
Rowley, Jr., Robert D. - Northwestern Pennsylvania
Salmon, Jr., Edward L. - South Carolina
Schofield, John-David M. - San Joaquin
Stanton, James M. - Dallas
Thompson, Jr., Herbert - Southern Ohio
vonRosenberg, Charles G. - East Tennessee
Whitmore, Keith B. - Eau Claire
Wimberly, Don A. - Texas

Not voting

Larrea, Neptali - Central Ecuador
Scruton, Gordon Paul - Western Massachusetts

[Grampa Dave]

Here is a link to an excellent thread re an article written by a Lutheran. It touches on what had been a growing link between Lutherans and Episcopalians.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/960187/posts

Are Episcopalians Still a Church? A Lutheran theologian/journalist examines Robinson confirmation
Christianity Today ^ | 8/7/03 | Uwe Siemon-Netto


Posted on 08/07/2003 5:49 PM PDT by rhema


The 2.1 million U.S. Episcopalians will have to ponder three urgent questions now that their General Convention in Minneapolis has approved the election of an openly homosexual cleric as next bishop of New Hampshire:


Will their tiny denomination (there are fewer Episcopalians now than convicts in jail) remain in communion with the rest of the world's 70 million Anglicans? Their chances are slim, given the warnings of the Most Rev. Peter Akinola, archbishop of Lagos and primate of Nigeria, who has of late become the world's most forceful Protestant voice.


How will the Minneapolis decision impinge on ecumenical relations with much larger partners, especially the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, to which Episcopalians are in a sense married by a treaty titled Called to Common Mission, or CCM? Great is the danger that it will accelerate the ELCA's expected implosion over the issue of—guess what?—homosexuality.


Is the Episcopal Church USA still a church in the historical and theological sense of the word? Since Minneapolis there are solid reasons to doubt that the ECUSA as a denomination can seriously make this claim (this does not mean, though, that its faithful dioceses and denominations, a minority, should be read out of the Body of Christ).


What is a church? The Greek word ek-klesia defines it clearly: "called out" (of the masses)— by God, not libido. "Church" is not an assembly of the elect chic with the right to decide which political, sexual or other preference, or any fad for that matter, may be considered holy.


"Church" is not an organization whose clerics—representing Christ at the altar—can declare their same-sex partnership "sacramental," as did the Rev. Canon V. Gene Robinson before his election to the New Hampshire bishopric was confirmed. Protestantism, Anglicanism included, affirms "two sacraments instituted by Christ our Lord in the Gospel-Baptism and the Lord's Supper," we read in article 25 of the Anglican Church's 39 Articles of Religion. Whims of concupiscence do definitely not fall under this rubric.


In article 19 of the same 16th century statement of faith we find these words: "The visible church of Christ is a congregation of believers in which the pure Word of God is preached and in which the sacraments are rightly administered according to Christ's command in all those matters that are necessary for proper administration."


"The pure word of God"—both in the Old and New Testaments—proscribes divorce and certain types of sexual activity. Before Monday's crucial vote, Robinson's supporters spoke much of being guided by "the Spirit." No doubt, they were. But whether it was the Holy Spirit is quite a different question. All sorts of religious fiends, especially those following the example if the 16th-century enthusiasts led by the blood-soaked Thomas Muentzer, claimed adherence to the free-blowing Third Person in the Trinity.


Since Episcopalians are ecumenically wedded with Lutherans—and actually imposed their form of ministerial oversight on them—please let's give Luther a voice here. He said that the only safe way to probe such a question is to test it against Scripture. Had the ECUSA's House of Bishops done so in Minneapolis, the Rev. Robinson would not be given a miter, but the sound advice to repent.


The selfishness and arrogance of the Minneapolis vote are astounding. It was a decision based purely on North American—and perhaps Western European—preoccupations with their bodily wants. Not only did the General Convention of the "Church of Good Taste" ignore the beliefs of fellow Anglicans in Africa, Asia and South America, about whose faithfulness U.S. prelates such as John Spong, the former bishop of Newark, N.J., snigger haughtily.


No, they also disregarded their Lutheran partners whose ministers are ordained on the "sola scriptura" principle, which holds that truth is revealed in Scripture alone. When Robinson is consecrated, a Lutheran bishop must also hold his hands over his head, according to CCM, even though it is still stated ELCA doctrine that homosexual behavior violates the will of God.


Doubtless, there will be a Lutheran bishop ready to comply. But when that happens, it will further unravel the ELCA, whose presiding bishop, Mark S. Hanson, is also the president of the Lutheran World Federation, most of whose member denominations are as opposed to the encroachment of secular and un-Biblical concerns as are African, Asian and Latin American Anglicans—and millions of their faithful brethren in the West as well.


The good news is that this is not a crisis of Christianity as a whole. Most fervent Christians know that worldly concerns and desires are never faith's launching pad. Christians are called to discipleship; they are not called to edit God's will according to their preferences.


As disciples, they will suffer like their incarnate God. For faithful Anglican congregations who feel they can no longer remain within the ECUSA an intense period of suffering is about to begin, which is why they need all the support they can get from like-minded people in other denominations. They will lose their sanctuaries—often very old ones—because the Episcopal Church will turn to secular courts, as it has done in such cases in the past, claiming some very valuable real estate.


That, too, violates Scripture, but who is quibbling now?


If you wish to be a clairvoyant, it's easy to look into the future. While orthodox Christians will worship in school auditoriums or the sanctuaries of other denominations at first, a form of Anglicanism increasingly disconnected from Scripture and tradition will celebrate itself with great splendor in ever-more empty churches and cathedrals.


There will be He-He and She-She couples in the pews and, heck, why not He-and-She-and-She or She-and-He-and-He, and Me-and-Me; all this is sacramental by new Episcopal standards, isn't it? So go bless the gin and tonic and pass it around with finger foods to the folks in front of this new religion's altars.

Pray, what would be a more fitting farewell party for a church in a tailspin?


Uwe Siemon-Netto is religion editor for United Press International.

---

[GrannyAnnie]

If someone needs to pause and pray about this, they're already doomed. Get outa Gomorrah!

[Grampa Dave]

Actually, I think that you will find that the Methodist Church was infected by the mass liberalism and then homosexual pastors first and on a larger scale than in the Episcopal Churches.

Up to now we have had the power to select our priests and to recommend the firing of them if necessary.

The Methodist members have no such choices. They are told who their minister is. That minister has total power over the congregation. Out here on the West Coast, they are infected with very hostile lesbian ministers.

A standard move by a new clipped haired and mean lesbo minister is to donate their new Church's hall as a day care center for the homeless. This means that the members who bought and paid for the church are often banned from using their meeting hall for their meetings.

Then, these halls become sites for drug dealers and drug deals. Property value around the church's tumble with the daily invasion of these so called homeless.

My 88 year old mother in law has been a life long Methodist in the midwest. She has had two of these lesbians as ministers in her church. Now, she wants nothing to do with the church and them.

[N. Theknow]

I think you will have many gays who are agnostic, loosely affiliated with other religions, or maybe just not involved in any faith will now flock to this church. Some may even use it as an opportunity to meet other gays (a pick-up place).

Already happening before the convention decided that God made a good mascot.

[hellinahandcart]

He's got to be kidding. You'd have to tie me down to keep me away from services this Sunday.

I need to have some idea of where my church stands on this.

[Fifth Business]

My 88 year old mother in law has been a life long Methodist in the midwest. She has had two of these lesbians as ministers in her church. Now, she wants nothing to do with the church and them.

It's both very sad and an outrage, especially for those whose loved ones are buried in the church cemetery and whose names have been part of the church rolls for decades.

[sweetliberty]

I agree with your sentiments. The church in America has been sold its heavenly inheritance for a mess of pottage. I have a boss and at least a couple of coworkers who are openly homosexual. I have found my sense of contempt for their sin burning somewhat deeper this past week.

If there is a way to be an unrepentant, practicing homosexual and retain the blessing of the church God, the Holy Spirit has failed to reveal that to me. Perhaps He only reveals His will to queers these days < /sarcasm >

[PaxMacian]

"I hope that...we...can preserve our respect for one another and for the bonds that unite us,"

I hope that I never find myself united with those that openly define themselves as self determined unrepentant serial sinners. Though, I certainly respect the power of God to heal the penitent. And, if Robinson would see the light, go forth and sin no more it would be a great day.

Luke 15:7
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

But, what shall we see next from the abominable bishop?
Shall he open a convent for practicing prostitute nuns?

[hardhead]

Isn't that how satan does his work, of recruiting souls? Its like a giant multi-level marketing opportunity for hell.