XM-8: New U.S. Service Rifle?

Modern Firearms and Ammunition website ^ | unknown | Unknown

[Long Cut]

Caliber: 5.56x45 mm NATO
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
Overall length: no data
Barrel length: no data
Weight: 2.67 kg empty
Rate of fire: no data
Magazine capacity: 30 rounds (STANAG)

The development of the XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle was initiated by US Army in the 2002, when contract was issued to the Alliant Techsystems Co of USA to study possibilities of development of kinetic energy part of the XM29 OICW weapon into separate lightweight assault rifle, which could, in the case of success, replace the aging M16A2 rifles and M4A1 carbines in US military service. According to the present plans, the XM8 should enter full production circa 2005, if not earlier, several years before the XM-29 OICW. The XM8 (M8 after its official adoption) should become a standard next generation US forces assault rifle. It will fire all standard 5.56mm NATO ammunition, and, to further decrease the load on the future infantrymen, a new type of 5.56mm ammunition is now being developed. This new ammunition will have composite cases, with brass bases and polymer walls, which will reduce weight of the complete ammunition, while maintaining compatibility with all 5.56mm NATO weapons. Along with 20% weight reduction in the XM8 (compared to the current issue M4A1 carbine), this will be a welcome move for any infantryman, already overloaded by protective, communications and other battle equipment.

The XM8 will be quite similar to the "KE" (kinetic energy) part of the XM-29 OICW system, being different mostly in having a telescoped plastic buttstock of adjustable length, and a detachable carrying handle with the Picatinny rail.

Technical description. The XM8 is a derivative of the Heckler-Koch G36 assault rifle, and thus it is almost similar to that rifle in design and functioning. The key differences are the NATO-standard magazine housing that will accept M16-type magazines, the set of Picatinny rails on the forend, telescoped buttstock of adjustable length and a different scope, mounted on the Picatinny rail, built into the detachable carrying handle.

[bc2]

Thanks for the story, archy. Sounds tough. I figured it was like a burn... OUCH!

The link to the Polish mags didn't work out, but your 2nd link did. I think I might go for this combo pack, let me know what you think before I go to town.

Also, I'm looking for a good 3-point sling for my AK. Anything stick out in your mind as a good brand/buy? I see them here for $15 and there is another model here that is $22.99.

[B4Ranch]

Gather round and decide if a Horvus Vision Scope (H2 Thin Lined Ultra Long Range Reticle) would be the one to use. I keep reading and hearing good things about them.

[archy]

Thanks for the story, archy. Sounds tough. I figured it was like a burn... OUCH!

The link to the Polish mags didn't work out, but your 2nd link did. I think I might go for this combo pack, let me know what you think before I go to town.

It looks good to me. The Polish mags are synthetic black plastic/polymer, so lighter and weather resistant. I mostly have East German and Chinese AK mags myself, but the deal on the 4-pack and pouch is sweet enough I think I'll go for it as well. Try here for the $10 Polish magazines again.

Also, I'm looking for a good 3-point sling for my AK. Anything stick out in your mind as a good brand/buy? I see them here for $15 and there is another model here that is $22.99.

I go for something a little different with the heavier AK47s and RPKs, first of all preferring as wide a sling as possible to spread the weight, and not one made of nylon, should it come in contact wiuth a hot barrel. Then if I'm feeling antsy, I'll pop in a 75-round Chinese RPK drum, which comes in a pouch with its own over shouvder sling. I relocate the buttstock swivel on my AKs to the top of the buttstock near the buttplate and let it hang waist-high. The strap/sling for the drum pouch goes over the other shoulder, and since it carries the weight of the drum and ammo, reduces the load on the other shoulder considerably.

The only 3-point sling I've worked with extensively is the Giles sling, which I use with some bolt rifles, folding stock AKs, and my 8-cell aircraft landing light flashlight. Details here, available from GG&G *here, or

[bc2]

here, or... ? hehehe

The barrel on the rifle does get pretty hot. I never would have thought of nylon melting, thanks for the tip! I've thought about picking up the $75 round drum, you can buy 'em for about $99. I'd be afraid of melting the barrel, though. It would take a lot of self control to keep from blasting through the 75 rounds in 10 seconds a bunch of times hahaah. But I'm thinking that if you ever really needed that sort of firepower without changing mags, you'd be glad you had it.

So if you don't think the 3point sling is going to work, what do you think I should do? Move the stock swivel to the top and get a longer sling??

[tet68]

I've been wanting to try building one, parts kits are reasonable and receivers not too bad either.

I have an L1A1 on an IMbel receiver, love it, got rid of the plastic and have it with an izzy hand guard and original wood grip and stock, now if I can just get the Izzy bolt and charging handle and a trilux I'll be fixed up.

Hard to take the time from all those Mosins, and lately Mausers too have eaten up my resources.

Even worse, the dang K-31 I just got looks great,perfect bore sweet trigger, got a scout mount and ler scope mounted just have to get to the range, so many guns so little time.

It's a curse I tell ya.

Here's my Izzy Mauser with a scout mount Leatherwood 2x7x32 LER during hunting season. A SOG UFIXUm but it had a great bore and cleaned up nice.

www.Cruffler.com
www.milsurpshooter.com

[Shooter 2.5]

My Number One, Mark III has a creepy, horrible one stage trigger.

[archy]

The barrel on the rifle does get pretty hot. I never would have thought of nylon melting, thanks for the tip! I've thought about picking up the $75 round drum, you can buy 'em for about $99. I'd be afraid of melting the barrel, though.

Not with just one magazine's worth. At the Spring 2000 Knob Creek shoot, there was a fella who went through 8 or 10 75-round drums in a row just to see what would happen. The handguards charred, eventually caught fire and the upper guard fell off, but that was about it. One drum won't hurt anything.

It would take a lot of self control to keep from blasting through the 75 rounds in 10 seconds a bunch of times hahaah. But I'm thinking that if you ever really needed that sort of firepower without changing mags, you'd be glad you had it.

Yep. Though better spread between two shooters, to intersperse the magazine changes.

So if you don't think the 3point sling is going to work, what do you think I should do? Move the stock swivel to the top and get a longer sling??

Move the swivel and try a standard length AK sling. Slung muzzle down, behind the left shoulder [if you're right handed] it swings up under the left arm to the right shoulder very quickly, sometimes called the *border carry* or *African carry*. Or try it with the sling all the way loose, slung at waist level, strap over the neck or one shoulder.

[archy]

My Number One, Mark III has a creepy, horrible one stage trigger.

Try a #4 Mark II.

[bc2]

do you like folding stock AK's?

[Travis McGee]

I have some FAL questions. Do you mount optics, and if so, what is the preferred mounting solution? And with quality ammo, what kind of 100 yard groups is a good FAL capable of?

Thanks,
Matt

[Criminal Number 18F]

Your replies are perfectly OK -- for a personally owned weapon, owned by someone who cares for his tools. As you point out "the needs of American gun owners are different from those of military orgs".

The average military weapon is handled by generation after generation of soldiers. However well trained they are, Joe (or José) Snuffy doesn't treat the weapon like some guy who laid out two weeks' take-home pay for it -- or built it on his own workbench. A GI thinks nothing at all about using his weapon to break his fall, to pry open boxes, etc.

Believe me, I have seen hundreds of FALs with broken extractors and ejectors. And it's also true that a lot of these nations bought the tool -- when the bought the FALs (in some cases, that would be 1958). In fifty years one sight tool per company's worth of weapons usually goes adrift.

The cheapness of FAL parts from SARCO or whomever is small consolation in embargoed Rhodesia, isolated Suriname, or penniless Bolivia.

The "spare bolt carrier group" is how the broken extractor is usually resolved in the field, but because these poor nations have few if any spares, the "spare" comes from another weapon that is downed for cannibalisation.

You probably won't believe this, but in most of the armies of the world, even an infantry soldier never fires a rifle round again after basic training, unless he sees combat. (Even in the well-funded US Army, training ammo for most soldiers has been restricted to enough to pass the qualification tables annually -- about 40 rounds per soldier. The new Chief of Staff intends to fix this).

For a private owner, I will agree that the FAL is a superior weapon to the others you cite. It handles much better than the M14 series, and is less awkward to carry (and I have carried both of them on week-long patrols). I also like it better than the G3/HK91, which I guess is a dead issue for private purchasers with the AWB in place. I have seen some pretty crummy parts-kit FALs though, so a novice should probably make sure he is dealing with a reputable smith or firm (or he winds up like the CETME people or the guys that bought Norinco cast-receiver "M1As" - hosed).

For most people, shooting humans is kind of theoretical and so they buy what they like. For practical purposes they would probably be better served with a nice 10-22 which they'd shoot a lot more, and a shotgun for home defence against random acts of goblinry. But people want what they want, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Better to have it and never need it to ever need it and not have it, right?

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[archy]

do you like folding stock AK's?

I don't care for the underfolders. They get loose and wobble, and the AK needs all the help it can get in maintaining a good sight picture with those mediocre or worse open sights.

The East German/ Romanian sidefolding stock is okay, but is a bit narrow in the buttplate- you'll sometimes see these with a commercial recoil; pad taped on both to widen the surface area against the arm and to lengthen the short folding stock a bit for larger folks. I'm happier with the sidefolder on a 5,45mm AKM or AK74 clone than on a 7,62x39mm caliber gun, one reason I'm so interested in trying out some of the Russian 7,62 bullpups or a couple of my own ideas along those lines.

I've not worked real extensively with the triangular folder of the Russian paratroop AK74S version, nor the folding plastic stock of the AK103, but I'm willing to see what they're like. There's nothing really wrong with the short little AK fixed stock unless it's T-shirt weather, and if a field jacket with liner or a bulky parka is worn, the AK stock fits me just right. You figure that's what old MikTim had in mind all aloong?

If a foot or so's length needs to be knocked off the overall length of an AK, it's much better to do it with a folding stock than with any thoughts of a shorter barrel, though. And I'm really fond of the longer barrels anyway.

[archy]

I don't think you could do it in Texas. We have too much heat mirage and our soil drifts so much my house isn't that stable.

I won't even mention the wind.

Got any 3/4 mile long railway tunnels? Straight ones? I know of one in Montana that'd likely do it. And some mountain cuts or passes would likely do as well.

I wouldn't be surprised if the first rifleman to score on the Cooper game is Swiss. Whem I last shot in a match there, the range was on one mountain. And the backstop was another mountain. And the old Swiss K-31 straightpull rifle loaded with heavy .308 boattails might just be the tool for the job, especially with a 12-shot magazine fitted.

-archy-/-

[Travis McGee]

Yes, move the stock swivel to the top. If you're not going to routinely dress in full battle gear, forget the 3 point sling. Just attach your sling near the front sight and the rear stock (on top) so that there is enough slack that the rifle will rest horizontally around your belly button, hands off. THere needs to be just enough slack to pull the rifle smoothly up to your shoulder for firing.

This way, you can walk around, with two, one or no hands on it. Strong hand on the pistol grip, the free left hand can open doors, move branches etc.

For climbing walls or trees or more comfortable "garrison carry" just slip your strong arm under the strap, and let it ride on your back, muzzle down. Reverse this to bring it to ready position, that is, strap behind neck, both arms outside of the strap, on or near the weapon.

This is not quite as good as wearing a modern tactical harness and 3 point sling, but the advantage is the entire one-piece sling always stays on the rifle, 100% ready to throw over your neck, battle ready. You don't have to 'suit up' and snap on the rifle to be ready. It's how I do it. It works.

[Joe Brower]

I've only used the iron sights on my DSA SA58 medium contour -- they came perfectly zeroed at 200 meters right out of the box, and that gives you dead-on at about 25 meters as well, with very little climb in between those ranges. I've had no trouble hitting milk jugs standing out to about 125 meters with this setup.

As for ammo and accuracy, one of the neatest things about this rifle (besides how naturally it points), is that it performs almost equally with anything you feed it, and it has cycled every ammo brand, both milsurp and civilian, that I've fed it, and groups about equally well. I haven't benched it, but offhand I'd say that 1.5" - 2" groups wouldn't be out of the question. Good enough for government work, if you know what I mean...

[bc2]

thanks for the info, you guys rock!

when are we going to start the daily FR gun nut thread?

best regards,

bc2

[archy]

when are we going to start the daily FR gun nut thread? best regards,

Looks like you just have. Also a related post is now going on the topic of Naco Border Patrol agents pinned down by automatic weapon fire *here*

[Shooter 2.5]

If I see a Number four, I'll have to give it a try. I'm not going to look for one though. There's something about the Enfields that I really don't like. It must be that two piece stock that looks like it was cobbled together. Also, since I don't reload for .303, I've never tried to see what my rifle will do.

This Cooper Challenge won't be won with a bolt action. It also won't be won with anything that needs a magazine change. Someone should call Barrett and see if they're up to winning this thing.

Texas Railroad tunnels? Don't think so.

[Long Cut]

Since we're doing a "daily gun nut thread", I guess we should start it when this one reaches a certain number of posts, like 1,000 or so. Tough to do right...seems all the continuing threads that work well have women managing them...hmmmm...

Anyway, for my first set of questions for the experts today:

1. Archy, you mentioned the Swiss K-31 rifle. I've seen this piece advertised a lot in Shotgun News...is it as good as it looks for the money, and is ammo relatively easy to come by? What mods, if any, would one of these need?

2. For you FAL-aholics out there, I've been eyeing one or another FAL clone for years, but some things about it elude my pea brain. For instance, how often should one adjust the gas regulator, and how is this done? I've heard that they sometimes break gas pistons; are these difficult to replace? Lastly, PLEASE, will someone explain, in simple terms, this business of "metric" FALS vs. "Inch" FALs? The distinction drives me nuts. How do you tell? What mags work with which ones?

Oh, and just how much skill is needed if I wish to build my own? I'm no gunsmith, and my workshop has no lathes or other machine tools. Can I still do this?

Or should i just savbe up for a few years to get a DMS version?

[PoorMuttly]

Just some humble FYI for what it's worth...since you don't reload (once you try a cheap Lee Loader, you will attain a new level of spiritual joy)...

In researching specs for my friend's #4 sporter, the one I fired last week...barrel harmonics seem to be the limiting factor with them (don't know what damping effect all that G.I. wood may exert), and 2400-2450 fps. (if memory serves) is optimal. We wonder what the Hornady Light Magnum moly-coated rounds may do.

Muttly must now look into this magic Swiss rifle he always wanted anyway..so off we go !

Hello C&R.