XM-8: New U.S. Service Rifle?

Modern Firearms and Ammunition website ^ | unknown | Unknown

[archy]

I didn't think to ask how many 6.8s fit into a 30 rnd 556 mag. I'm guessing 20-22? Maybe as many as 24? Purely guessing.

25, depending on the follower.

My take on the "tumbling" was that the old 55 grain ammo out of a 1-14 twist barrel (if that's what the M-16A1 was) was not too stable at best.

The GI M16 and M16A1, as *improved* by Army ordnance, had 1:12 twist barrels, changed from the earliest Armalite AR15 rifles distributed in-country by the Limited Warfare Laboratory and the USAF that had 1:14 twist tubes. The reason supposedly was ordnance fears about bullet penetration and stability under arctic conditions, not something I immediately recall experiencing from the few years I was around Southeast Asia.

As soon as it hit somebody it tended to fishtail and flip. The new NATO standard 62 grain ammo, fired from a faster twist 1-9 barrel, is extremely stable in flight. It was designed for NATO armies to be capable of hitting and penetrating a Russian steel helmet at about 600 yards. That's great, but when it hits Abdul at 20 feet, it often makes a clean "knitting needle" or "icepick" wound. These wounds, while ultimately fatal, don't reliably put a man out of the fight immediately. Much of their energy is wasted, as the bullet zips on through and keeps going.

Indeed, the M16A2 rifle, suitably reworked into a National Match version, makes a pretty fair 600-yard National Match course rifle, as recently used successfully by several competition shooters. I've been sufficiently impressed to consider a match M16A2 service rifle upper for my old AR15 clone, whose trigger I'm very happy with and used to.

The Russians have better bullet designs, which are made to flip 180* every time passing through a torso. These wounds do far more damage than a "knitting needle," ripping and shredding a wide swath of meat and organs, and going from 3,000 to almost nil fps, dumping all their energy into the shootee.

More to the point, the Russian ammo is designed from the start to be used from the barrel of a 16-inch barrelled 5,45mm weapon, the AK74. And it works just fine in one, though the results in the shorty AKSU tanker's version have been reported as much less satisfactory. In my own experience, I've got an EX-USAF lady friend who far prefers her 5,45mm SAR-2 to the various M16 family < rifles she qualified with and practiced base defense activities with during her USAF service. And the more I get to try it, the more similarly impressed I become, and the more I look forward to a lengthy exposure to the use of a 24-inch barrelled RPK74.

FYI, Remington is now listing the 6.8 Remington SPC ammo in its on-line catalog, and says this about it:

Developed in conjunction with the U.S. Military, the 6.8mm Remington SPC provides greater downrange effectiveness and ballistics than the 5.56x45mm. It’s unique design is based on the 30 Remington case, which has been necked down to 6.8mm(.277).
It's available in Match and Express Core-Lokt (BTHP and metal case)

Midway USA is listing three 6.8mm Remington SPC cartridges, at these prices for a box of 20:

$14.45 Remington Express Ammo 6.8mm Remington SPC 115 Grain Boat Tail Hollow Point

$12.90 Remington Express Ammo 6.8mm Remington SPC 115 Grain Metal Case

$17.45 Remington Premier Match Ammo 6.8mm Remington SPC 115 Grain MatchKing Boat Tail Hollow Point

The status is listed as "coming soon."

I think if I go and jump on the 6,8mm bandwagon, it'll likely be in a Robinson Arms *Expeditionary Rifle* with interchangable barrels, likely a fairly short one in the *bren gun* configuration. With something else for a bipod.

[river rat]

"....I've never shot anyone with an M4/M16"

Neither have I, but I have NEVER seen a mortal man take a 7.62 into center torso - front or rear - and be able to do anything but lay down, stay down and take a dirt nap. Hits in less fatal locations, would still knock the bastard down, usually with a sudden loss of interest in further aggravating you.

Had I seen anyone take two or three shots to the chest, and then fire at me after I went by ---- I would surrender to the bastard!

The unforgivable drawbacks with the sweet M14 - is Length, Weight and Bulk of piece and ammunition, and it does not lend itself to being brought to bear in close confined places.... I'm all for a light, short piece - but I believe one would have to insist on a projectile and ballistics that will convince the target to DIE!

Our guys should have a weapons system that can KILL...not injure... For the in close building clearing operations - what the hell is wrong with a sawed off shot gun? Don't laugh when I mention the reliable killing functionality of the ancient .45 ACP firing Thompson Sub-Machine gun... It's a short piece - and the round in close is effective.

Frankly, I can't keep up with all the new weapon systems they're coming up with -- it seems every month they come up with a new platform... This can't be good...especially if they're simply "bad" looking but ineffective for the purpose they're intended --- to KILL RELIABLY. I don't think the enemy is impressed by "bad" high tech looking weapons --- but they do respect an effective weapon...

Semper Fi

[PoorMuttly]

Thompson BUMP !

Scandium would be nice....

[Squantos]

Great information .....BTW I spoke with my brother (the PJ) and they had not even heard of the 6.8 SPC yet. Thus the "in house" process of the procurment and testing is highly probable. BTW the round is almost an exact clone ballistically of the .270 JDJ Wildcat round that's been around for a few decades.

5th SFG has some good folks . I worked JTF 6 with some of those from ODA 591 for a bit in early 90's.

Thanks again Travis for the SHOT show report.......any new toys that stuck out this year ??

Stay safe !

[Squantos]

Ditto.....I like the 7.62 and the 6.5x55 so maybe this clone of the .270 JDJ they are naming 6.8 SPC will work a bit better ?

Stay safe !

[Travis McGee]

Man, you would love to see the Troy Arms "SOPMAD" version M-14s. Give them an M1A or M14 and they give you back a shorty all black collapsible stock M-14 with a quad picaninny rail forward, and the top mounting rail all the way back to the rear sight. That booth was across from ours, and they ALWAYS had a mob handling their guns. Great guys too!

Or if you like, you could try the SR-25 (milspec AR-10 with quad rails etc) I mentioned above, although that one's not as short as the SOPMAD M-14.

[Criminal Number 18F]

The display has only a couple of individual T-48s. Any pictures of large quantities in racks probably dates from around the time of the troop tests.

Problems with the FAL that I have observed in troop service are:

1. Extractor breakages. Serious problem and common as the weapons age. Requires spares (which third world nations never seem to be able to lay hands on, if they ever had them) and a bench to fix. This is no sweat to any half-competent tinkerer, let along a gunsmith, but is a major poser for the guy with a third grade education who's a battalion armourer somewhere.

2. Ejector breakages. This also downs the weapon, and it is a depot level repair.

3. Sights. The metric FAL requires a tool for sight adjustment. Anybody reading this whose ambitions include designing weapons for Joe/Josef/José Snuffy, do not EVER design a weapon to use a tool for something that can be arranged to be done without. In all the world, the only armies that will not lose the tools are the Germans and the Swiss (the Anglosphere armies can control the tools, but only if they are kept in the hands of quartermasters, which defeats the purpose).

4. Stocks and handguards. The jerk that designed the metal handguard (as on the RSA-built FALs) did not intend for the weapon to be fired more that once. Dumb. The wooden stock on older FALs (while often a piece of beautiful walnut!) is prone to breakage. The plastic furniture isn't the last word either but it beats wood for durability and metal for heat control.

d.o.l.

Criminal Number 18F

[PoorMuttly]

Alaskan friends tell me they often arm their wives and children with 6.5x55s...because the recoil is light...and it hauls in a LOT of meat...BIG stuff...every year.

The .270 has proved itself in the hunting fields of America for very many years, and I would really like to see it take its place in our fighting military.

I have been studying the ballistics of .30'06-cased rounds...and am literally amazed at .270 cal. ballistics. I hardly see a reason to own a .25'06 now, which I had been considering. (probably will own both though...Muttly being...well...Muttly!)

[Travis McGee]

I'm sorry to report I didn't get around much, 80% of the show I spent in the Accu-Shot booth fielding questions about the Accu-Shot monopod and my book. Blackhawk Industries had a humongous section with "rock concert" ladder frames to the ceiling and all over. They had more floor space than Remington or S&W. But I found out all their tactical gear is made in China, so all that "Freedom's Force!!!" hoo-ya kind of rings hollow.

We did have a string of fascinating folks visit our booth: Accu-Shot is a "better mousetrap" that just about all serious shooters are buying. Just a little 6oz, $68 gizmo that replaces and far outperforms your old sandback under the butt of your rifle....

One old fellow (no BS) is into 2 mile shooting with his own .408 wildcat. You had to be there. He says you need a table for the earth's coriollis effect.... No kidding, he was the real deal.

We also had CIA, IDF (a female major sniper leader no less), USSS, guys from foreign teams, SF, you name it. The little hand turned up-down micrometer in the back is the only way to go, it seems like. Chuck out that sandbag!

I didn't mention the 2 mile shooter to the USSS guys when they were in the booth. It might have given them heart attacks.

[archy]

"....I've never shot anyone with an M4/M16"

Neither have I, but I have NEVER seen a mortal man take a 7.62 into center torso - front or rear - and be able to do anything but lay down, stay down and take a dirt nap.

I have, with both M16A1 and M14, as well as .30 carbine. The M14 is fine so long as it hits, but like the M1 Garand, it's an Infantryman's weapon, and promotes flinching from those unused or untrained with it, the reason there were six M1 carbines fielded in WWII for every M1 Garand. To get that effective hit, you've first got to get a hit. The balance between the two demands is not at all a wide-open window of opportunity, but training and familiarity helps considerable. Unfortunately, that seems to be the first thing to go when the chance to buy new armored cars at 3 million each comes along....

Hits in less fatal locations, would still knock the bastard down, usually with a sudden loss of interest in further aggravating you.

I've twice been hit by the short assault rifle versions of the 7,62, and was quite uninterested in aggravating anyone. In one instance I was hit in the left hand and was bleeding all over the place, fascinated by the result when I got my field dressing applied to the exit side: the blood pumped out twice as quickly through the entrence hole. I eventually got a second dressing, and with elevation and pressure, got things under control after generally soaking myself, my weapon and magazines, and the surrounding area. The second time was like being hit with a baseball bat, and I don't recall a thing beyond that.

Had I seen anyone take two or three shots to the chest, and then fire at me after I went by ---- I would surrender to the bastard!

I believe I'd want to try a headshot first, or one transverse through both shoulders.

The unforgivable drawbacks with the sweet M14 - is Length, Weight and Bulk of piece and ammunition, and it does not lend itself to being brought to bear in close confined places.... I'm all for a light, short piece - but I believe one would have to insist on a projectile and ballistics that will convince the target to DIE!

A few other things: the lack of a helpful folding stock for the mech infantry and helicopter set. The roller on the bolt, which sometimes cracks or splits, particularly on full-auto, unless heavily lubricated. Sling swivels that rattle and fall off. A fragile front sight. A few other minor details could stand improvement.

Our guys should have a weapons system that can KILL...not injure... For the in close building clearing operations - what the hell is wrong with a sawed off shot gun? Don't laugh when I mention the reliable killing functionality of the ancient .45 ACP firing Thompson Sub-Machine gun... It's a short piece - and the round in close is effective.

They're getting ready to chop up another batch of M3A1 grease guns at Anniston, so I hear. Considering the reported shortage of M4/M16A2 rifles for tank crews and SP artillerymen that required our issuing captured Iraqi AKMs to vehicle crews placed in groundpounder positions, that seems beyond negligent....

Frankly, I can't keep up with all the new weapon systems they're coming up with -- it seems every month they come up with a new platform... This can't be good...especially if they're simply "bad" looking but ineffective for the purpose they're intended --- to KILL RELIABLY. I don't think the enemy is impressed by "bad" high tech looking weapons --- but they do respect an effective weapon...

I like the idea that the enemy sees all these various tools pointed their way, uncertain of their capabilities and function, being used to their simple AKs. Let them fear the unknown [and the Spanish seem very hapopy with their German G36s, even if the Germans are afraid to exercise their own. I'm no fan of the '36, but the Spanish tercios seem quite pleased with it.] But there are some neat new features that come along, and the open bolt full-auto/ closed bolt semiauto feature of the German FG42 and the Johnson M42 light machinegun is on that list.

[Travis McGee]

Somebody at the SHOT showed me a brand new 6.8 Rem and a brand new 6.5 Grendal. The Grendal is a LONG slug in a slightly shorter case. It starts out 100fps slower in a heavier bullet, but with a far superior BC it passes the 6.8 at 100 yards, and just keeps on going. Much better ballistics downrange. Fitting into rifles and mags is another subject, of course.

[Squantos]

I have an old desert one delta hammer monkey that took a 96 Swedish Mauser and cut it back to 16.5 inches. Loss of velocity is evident but it makes a really kewl truck gun ! A cheap piece of glass from Tasco makes it a viable beater gun for when I go wheeling . Very accurate and with the 140 gr Alaskan loads has dropped it's share of Mulies.

Stay Safe !!

[river rat]

I just did a google search on Troy Arms- with no feedback..

Would they be California Legal?
At what cost? If I already own the M14.

Where guns are involved, I have to sneak the new ones into the vault, with money accumulated over time and out of sight of my "Financial Minister"...

Semper Fi

[Travis McGee]

Lemme look through my brochure bag for the right name.

[archy]

Thompson BUMP !

Scandium would be nice....

Muttley, a couple of years back a youngster majoring in machine trades asked me about getting blueprints and machinist's working drawings of a M1928 Thompson for his graduate project in setting up a numerical control milling machine program. And he had stainless steel in mind for his project's material; he was pretty well heartbroken when I told him the 1986 Reagan *Firearms Owners Protection* law prohibited his swell idea.

The good news is, the beautiful version of the M1891 Mosin-Nagant rifle that resulted was a superb rendition of that design produced in Russia, two US factories and France, as well as several rebuilders elsewhere. And the resulting stainless version, serial number 1,000,000 resulting was both a pretty thing to behold and a good shooter in its own right. But the Tommy would indeed have been nice, and I could probably have hedged a M1A1 version out of him for myself.

[Squantos]

I'll snag one ASAP.........thanks for the report !

Stay Safe !

[Travis McGee]

Here's the link to Troy Industries SOPMOD M14s. I was a little off on the company name and weapon spelling. Probably would not fly in Cali due to pistol grip etc.

[Travis McGee]

That's the older 2000 version, with one thumb nut. You spin it down a little to flip the pod forward for stowage out of the way. The new version has two thumb nuts, one locks up against the mounting body, the other locks down against the hand wheel to give it a little resistance when you're on the bullseye.

[river rat]

Thanks, I'll check it out...
I have brothers in other states...

Semper Fi

[archy]

4. Stocks and handguards. The jerk that designed the metal handguard (as on the RSA-built FALs) did not intend for the weapon to be fired more that once. Dumb. The wooden stock on older FALs (while often a piece of beautiful walnut!) is prone to breakage. The plastic furniture isn't the last word either but it beats wood for durability and metal for heat control.

d.o.l.

Not quite. Those were the German and Austrian versions, based on their WWII experience in dealing with Soviet troops in overwhelming numbers, the same reason they forego bayonets in favour of an extra magazine's worth of ammo or two.

Both the Austrian Stg58 version of the FAL and the German G1 came equipped with bipods, and their users were expected to take cover and use it. Later with the coming of the West German Marder Mechanized Infantry fighting vehicle, the real return of the German Panzergrenadier came about, and with the mid-1960s, the shorter-barrelled German G3 rifle, also in a collapsing butt version used by Germany's paratroops.

Likely most of those Germans and Austrians expected to have their winter gloves or mittens along most of the year too. But both the earlier MP44 and the later Walther MPL and MPK machinepistols share the stamped metal foreends, and whatever their other failings, they don't melt or char.