XM-8: New U.S. Service Rifle?

Modern Firearms and Ammunition website ^ | unknown | Unknown

[Long Cut]

AHHHhh, for a perfect world! I think my wife would give hers to me, though. She's not too fond of guns, actually. It takes some real work on my part to convince her to let me get a new one.

Her refrain is, "How many do you need? Yo'uve only got two hands!"

[Joe 6-pack]

"Personally, I would prefer to see .257 Roberts..."

A little bit too long. I've always lked the idea of a .250 savage loaded for pressures above and beyond what the original lever actions it was designed for could handle, or something on the order of a .25-08 with about a 110-115 grain death pill at rght about 3K fps...

[GirlyGirl2003]

There will be no "sunsets". The GOP is increaseingly anti-gun as it moves left of center on many issues. Our guns will be taken from us in a few presidential terms, unless we can steer the GOP back to its conservative roots.

[Long Cut]

I used to think that, but there may be some cause for optimism. Check out www.awbansunset.com for the prevailing news. It is very encouraging.

Except for a few holdouts (Fienswine, Scummer, and the Swimmer among the worst), the Dems are seemingly dropping this one.

IMHO, the ONLY way the sunset will be thwarted is if some crazed nut with an Evil Black Rifle shoots up a bunch of people just prior to the suset date.

[archy]

AHHHhh, for a perfect world! I think my wife would give hers to me, though. She's not too fond of guns, actually. It takes some real work on my part to convince her to let me get a new one. Her refrain is, "How many do you need? Yo'uve only got two hands!"

My granddad used to say you didn't need more guns than *you could swim the river with* though when you addded in the trophies he'd collected after an interesting life, he was probably overloaded even by his own standard, though his most usual companions only numbered a half-dozen or so. But had you added the several trophies he'd picked up along the way, or all the ammo he kept stocked, he'd have surely drownde.

I'm of the opinion that a feller ought to have about as many quality weapons as he has birthdays, myself. And if by chance your family or pals don't present you with something appropriate for your annual celebration, it's a good excuse to pick up a treat for yourself.

-archy-/- b

[archy]

AHHHhh, for a perfect world! I think my wife would give hers to me, though. She's not too fond of guns, actually. It takes some real work on my part to convince her to let me get a new one.

Her refrain is, "How many do you need? Yo'uve only got two hands!"

Sometimes I wish I had your problem. The sweet young thing who receives the favour of my attention makes do with a folding-buttstock Kalishnikov as convenient when on her motorbike, and when she wants something that reaches out a little farther or hits a bit harder, she generally grabs one of mine that I'd figured on using, and I have to settle for second best instead.

There's a cure for that sort of thing, if just make it clear to her that it's mandatory that when she does so, she has to carry either the baseplate for the mortar or the ammo for the recoilless rifle...

-archy-/-

[archy]

There will be no "sunsets". The GOP is increaseingly anti-gun as it moves left of center on many issues.

Then perhaps it will be the GOP itself that *sunsets* instead, just as the party of the Whigs was replaced by the Republicans. And just as Theodore Roosevelt abandoned the Republican party to become a *BullMoose Progressive* when the Republicans of 1912 made the mistake of underestemating Roosevelt's determination. I hope today's Republicans do not underestimate ours.

The Bull Moose party was the popular name for the U.S. PROGRESSIVE PARTY that Theodore ROOSEVELT organized for his 1912 presidential campaign. After being denied the REPUBLICAN nomination that year, Roosevelt ran on his own third-party ticket.

The Bull Moose platform called for the direct election of senators; women's suffrage; monopoly-control laws; minimum-wage and child-labor legislation; tariff reform; and the initiative, recall, and referendum at the federal level. In the election, Roosevelt polled 4,118,571 popular and 88 ELECTORAL votes. He outpolled the Republican ticket but, by splitting the Republican vote, assured the election of Woodrow WILSON, the DEMOCRATIC candidate. The Bull Moose party disappeared in 1916, when Roosevelt rejoined the Republicans.

[archy]

I always believed the "two at once" introduction of the OICW was a huge mistake. Before there was an M-16/203, there wes an M-79 grenade launcher.

There still is. The stand-alone M79 *blooper* is still favoured by some current users in Afghanistan who were given carte blanche as to the equipment they could take along with them.

[tx65]

Flynet,

The 6.5 Grendel round loaded with a 123 grain bullet will weigh approximately 60 grains more per round then the 5.56 Nato loaded with a 77 grain bullet. As far as weight load for a solider carrying 10 magazines, this would transulate out to slighty over 2 additional pounds. Obviousally, the majority of the 60 grain increase per round is the 46 grain increase in bullet weight. When you consider the increased terminal effectivness, the extra 2 pounds becomes acceptable.

The 1,000 ft lbs at 1,000 yards is based on a 128 grain bullet at 2750 fps. The bullet is a VLD (Very Low Drag) design with a .560 Ballistic Coefficent. If you have access to a ballistics computer, simply enter the parameters making sure to use the proper G7 drag profile for VLD projectile designs.

If you havent seen it, there is a video clip from Armed Forces Journal Int'l of the 6.5 Grendel in action. This video clip can be found at defensereview.com. In addition, Shotgun News had a 4 page article on the cartridge and rifle in the full color October 6,2003 issue.

The cartridge and rifles will be commercially released in February 2004.

[FlyVet]

Thanks for the info. I have always been impressed with 6mm PPC ballistics, same with the new .260 Rem. So, out of curiousity, I did a Google search for "6.5mm PPC", and sure enough, some genious had already been working on it. Amazing something so small could have so much power, a true varmint-to-deer cartridge with plenty of range and accuracy for either purpose.

[tx65]

Glad I could provide some additional info,

The website you found is mine. I occasionally do a search for my own domain name and see where people are linking from and found your posting here.

The 6.5 PPC in an AR15 project you read about really had to with having a vision of something and taking a leap of faith. The original 6.5 PPC itself is not new since it was one of the original developments of the Palmisano and Pindell when they created the PPC cartridge family way back when.

Alexander Arms had been thinking of the concept on their own and through some twist of fate, our path's collided and I was happy to share what I had done with them. The evolution of the vision (s) has become the 6.5 Grendel which will improve on the 6.5 PPC performance.

With the buzz about the 6.8x43 cartridge, people are trying to make comparisons between the two. In some respects, the rounds can be compared, but in reality, I consider the 6.5 Grendel to be a ballistic twin of the 7.62 NATO (.308 WInchester). If you compare a .308 168 gr HPBT to a 6.5mm 108 gr HPBT, you will find they are almost ballistically identical. The 6.5mm 123 gr HPBT is a ballistic twin of various .308 185 gr HPBT bullets. However, in the 6.5 Grendel, velocity runs 100-200 fps higher then the 7.62 NATO for comparable ballistics bullets.

Only differences between the 7.62 NATO and 6.5 Grendel are recoil and terminal energy. The 6.5 Grendel has less recoil then the 7.62 NATO and the recoil of the 7.62 NATO has been and still is one of the issues of this round in military rifles. The 7.62 NATO does have more terminal energy due to greater bullet mass, but the increased terminal energy comes at a cost of higher recoil and increased weight of rifles and ammo. Of course, the really edge of the 6.5 Grendel is it is a drop in swap in an AR15 or M16 and doesnt require a different platform to operate.

Since this thread is really about XM8, the 6.5 Grendel can be used in any rifle with 5.56 NATO magazine dimensions just like the 6.8x43 can. Real question when comparing the two will be, would you rather have a 115 grain HPBT with a .352 BC at 2650 fps or a 108 grain HPBT with a .473 BC at 2650 fps in a 16 inch barrel rifle? Of course, in the 6.5mm, you can also crank up the ballistics going to a 123 grain or 128 grain bullet and still operate from the magazine... In contrast, using bullet data direct from Sierra, their 6.8mm 135 grain HPBT would have a minimum cartridge length of 2.475" which wont fit an AR15/M16 magazine and the bullet still doesnt equal the 6.5mm 123 grain ballistics.

The search for a better mousetrap continues....

[FlyVet]

The website you found is mine. I occasionally do a search for my own domain name and see where people are linking from and found your posting here.

Well, whatever it takes. :)

Welcome to Free Republic, tx. You'll find that a large number of "firearms-friendly" dudes and babes reside here, if you didn't already know it. It sounds like your knowledge will be quite helpful.

[tx65]

Glad I could stop by,,, you seem to be correct on "firearms-friendly" people,,,, not often you find a board where you have 412 responses to one thread.

[Long Cut]

It's gonna be a Beautiful Sunset, but not if we all get complacent. The Dims are running from the issue, but the Usual Suspects are not, and they'll push for a renewal AND expansion if we let them.

The gungrabbers have been quiet of late...TOO quiet, to steal a well-worn movie line. Methinks they are saving their resources for a fight to renew the Ban next year, and if the Republicans think we have lost interest, they might be tempted to go along, especially if a renewal or extension is attached to another, "must-pass" bill. Their feet need to be kept to the fire.

As well, if some assclown goes sideways and shoots up a public place between now and then, the pressure to pass a renewal might well be more than the Republicans can resist.

Take careful note of the anti-gun propaganda out there...the new movie "Runaway Jury" is nothing more than a 90+ minute commercial for gun control, the new bestseller by Richard North Patterson is a complete anti-gun/anti-NRA screed, and the H'wood crowd is on the offensive. It is subtle, and insidious, and it is freeing up the anti-gun organizations' money.

Stay alert, and inform others.

[archy]

Alexander Arms had been thinking of the concept on their own and through some twist of fate, our path's collided and I was happy to share what I had done with them. The evolution of the vision (s) has become the 6.5 Grendel which will improve on the 6.5 PPC performance.

With the buzz about the 6.8x43 cartridge, people are trying to make comparisons between the two. In some respects, the rounds can be compared, but in reality, I consider the 6.5 Grendel to be a ballistic twin of the 7.62 NATO (.308 WInchester). If you compare a .308 168 gr HPBT to a 6.5mm 108 gr HPBT, you will find they are almost ballistically identical. The 6.5mm 123 gr HPBT is a ballistic twin of various .308 185 gr HPBT bullets. However, in the 6.5 Grendel, velocity runs 100-200 fps higher then the 7.62 NATO for comparable ballistics bullets.

Pretty close also to the 7x43mm or .280/30 cartridges considered by the British as the chambering for their EM-2/ Number 9 Mark 1 bullpup service rifle of the early 1950s. And a possible candidate for feeding in the magazine well of rifle actions designed for the 5,56 x 45mm M16A2 cartridge....

Nice to see you in here and posting.

-archy-/-

[Long Cut]

Welcome to FR, if it's your first visit!

I really think that more "gun people" visit here than any "gun-specific" site. I think this thread got to 200 posts in its first day up, and it's still going strong months later.

I've never seen a thread on any gun site get near this, and this is far from the only one.

I read the SGN article on the Grendel round conversion. It would, in fact, make a nice compromise between the 5.56mm NATO round and the 7.62mm NATO, but then, so would many of the other rounds described elsewhere in the thread.

It seems, however, that unfortunately for us bulletheads, the DOD will stick with the 5.56mm, for at least another generation. This is probably due to 1. The millions of magazines and weapons already in the supply system which use it; and 2. The billions of rounds already out there.

My own view is that we need both a new cartrige AND a new rifle, preferably a "rifleman's rifle" (accurate, reliable, robust, and simple) for the 21st century. However, if we try to find a "perfect" cartridge and weapon combination, we might well spend the next 20 years dickering over it, while our military soldiers on with the M16 series. We're in a war, and they need the stuff NOW, not in 20. We can live with the 5.56mm for the time being, and with a new rifle, we can switch calibers later, at our leisure.

And, hopefully, we'll be able to buy one ourselves.

[Long Cut]

With regard to the BAN, it appears one company is actually doing something positive. Please read:

The ArmaLite® Post-PostBan ™ Rifle Program Fact: Unless reauthorized or replaced with a worse program, the Assault Weapon Act of 1994 will expire in September, 2004.

Possible outcomes are:

“Reauthorization,” i.e. no change in the law.
Replacement with a worse law, even to the possibility that production is halted.
Expiration of the law.
Expiration for only a short time, and then be reauthorization or worse.
The AW Ban is a cosmetic law, and we’d all like to own rifles without the blemishes that it established. If the law expires, there’s plenty of time to wait for a new rifle with “pre-ban” characteristics. If any of the other three outcomes occur, a delay could be a real mistake. The purpose of the PPB program is to prepare purchasers for any outcome.

The program offers customers a way to avoid the risk of delay, yet also have the benefits of a change in law. The opportunity is provided by the design of ArmaLite’s® 2003 rifles.

1. Beginning immediately, ArmaLite® 2003 rifles (with a pinned muzzle brake, or none installed) ship with a certificate that will provide customers a pin-on flash suppressor and installation instructions at no charge. Unless earlier legislation makes it illegal for customers to install the device, flash suppressors will ship in summer 2004 to allow time to get the rifle modified even if there’s an opportunity of only a few days.

Until the law changes, the flash suppressor will provide a reminder to every customer that it is essential to get out the vote in 2004.

2. For customers who wish to go an extra step and install a bayonet lug, ArmaLite® will continue to sell pin-on sight bases with bayonet lugs, and will provide installation instructions for gunsmiths. All ArmaLite® clamping front sight bases are easily removable, with no pin-holes in the barrel, so pin-on bases can be easily installed.

3. For customers who wish to be able to convert their rifle to a “Pre-Ban” configuration immediately upon expiration, ArmaLite® will produce and sell AR-10™ collapsing buttstocks (the AR-10™ requires a special collapsing buttstock). It is likely that prompt installation of such a buttstock will allow customers to make other changes at a more leisurely pace.

Installation of options 2 and 3 both are already available for law enforcement customers (with proper rifle markings). Civil customers must await a change in the law, and flash suppressors, bayonet lugs, and collapsing stocks will all be accompanied by clear information about the law to prevent a violation.

4. Pre-2003 rifles with pinned front sight bases or threaded-pinned-welded brakes, or customers who wish threaded brakes on 2003 models instead of pinned ones, require gunsmith or factory replacement of those parts. ArmaLite® offers the components for sale, and will perform conversions at normal shop charges.

Mark A. Westrom
President

I am starting to feel better and better about doing business with this company. Their website is www.armalite.com if anyone is interested in giving them some support. They have a forum there as well, and they also make a LOT of the weapons currently in use in the war by our Troops.

Companies like this, IMHO, deserve our support and patronage.

[Squantos]

Put your gun safe(s) next to her shoe closet/room/shipping container and she'll quit with that how many do ya "need" line real fast. New issue of American Handgunner has a great story about that....."Guchi looses to Glock... or something to that effect......:o)

Stay Safe !

[Long Cut]

If I could ONLY convince her to accompany me, just ONCE, to the range, she'd be hooked. Unsuccessful thus far, though. She just thinks I'm "buying toys" now.

[Squantos]

It's not the movies and propaganda I fear it's the "controllers" using drug induced village idiots to shoot up places for promoting their little seditious agenda. Kinda like environazi's that will burn or spike a forest to save it thang.....:o)

Suprised HCI doesn't have an ad for all those wife beaters who have ever failed anger management to call 1-800-GET-1GUN. These folks feed their need on such criminal elements and events. And thus punish all for the deeds of a few......Socialism...coming to your town eventually.

Stay Safe !