XM-8: New U.S. Service Rifle?

Modern Firearms and Ammunition website ^ | unknown | Unknown

[Long Cut]

Caliber: 5.56x45 mm NATO
Action: Gas operated, rotating bolt
Overall length: no data
Barrel length: no data
Weight: 2.67 kg empty
Rate of fire: no data
Magazine capacity: 30 rounds (STANAG)

The development of the XM8 Lightweight Assault Rifle was initiated by US Army in the 2002, when contract was issued to the Alliant Techsystems Co of USA to study possibilities of development of kinetic energy part of the XM29 OICW weapon into separate lightweight assault rifle, which could, in the case of success, replace the aging M16A2 rifles and M4A1 carbines in US military service. According to the present plans, the XM8 should enter full production circa 2005, if not earlier, several years before the XM-29 OICW. The XM8 (M8 after its official adoption) should become a standard next generation US forces assault rifle. It will fire all standard 5.56mm NATO ammunition, and, to further decrease the load on the future infantrymen, a new type of 5.56mm ammunition is now being developed. This new ammunition will have composite cases, with brass bases and polymer walls, which will reduce weight of the complete ammunition, while maintaining compatibility with all 5.56mm NATO weapons. Along with 20% weight reduction in the XM8 (compared to the current issue M4A1 carbine), this will be a welcome move for any infantryman, already overloaded by protective, communications and other battle equipment.

The XM8 will be quite similar to the "KE" (kinetic energy) part of the XM-29 OICW system, being different mostly in having a telescoped plastic buttstock of adjustable length, and a detachable carrying handle with the Picatinny rail.

Technical description. The XM8 is a derivative of the Heckler-Koch G36 assault rifle, and thus it is almost similar to that rifle in design and functioning. The key differences are the NATO-standard magazine housing that will accept M16-type magazines, the set of Picatinny rails on the forend, telescoped buttstock of adjustable length and a different scope, mounted on the Picatinny rail, built into the detachable carrying handle.

[The KG9 Kid]

In the HalfLife MOD 'Counter-Strike', the AK-47 is the most accurate gun of all for the first two rounds.

(*shakes head*)

[xsrdx]

There is no excuse, NONE, for any American infantryman not to be expert with their MBRs.

I did NOT say individual weapon - I said "battle rifle", a term specific to .30 caliber, select fire weapons like the HKG3, M14, FAL.

556mm select fire rifles are generally considered "assault rifles" - and are far easier to shoot well. I did not intend to state that we can't train infantrymen to handle their weapons effectively - only that it's exceedingly difficult to train large numbers of recruits to handle .30 caliber battle rifles effectively - and some will NEVER be able to do so - this was in large part the reason the M14 was retired so quickly.

When I say "better hits", I mean primarily faster target acquisition and more accurate shot placement, and faster transition between targets.

There is a mountain of evidence - the same evidence that led to adoption of the 556mm NATO standard in the first place - that the AVERAGE well trained riflemen will be able to engage more targets, in a shorter period, with greater accuracy, with 556mm than with 762mm.

The 556mm rifle is simply more utilitarian - it's lighter, points quicker, recoils less so follow up shots and transitions are faster - yes, it gives up some "lehality" at extreme range, but it's hardly the poodle shooter some would claim.

Hitting your target is always job number one.

Absolutely, and given equivalent training, more soldiers will hit with 556mm than with 762.

[xsrdx]

"lehality" = "lethality" doh

[xsrdx]

How many MILLIONS of troops were trained to effectively use 30 cal weapons during WW2?

In any sub 200yd gunfight, in a Garand vs. M4/M16 shootout, given equal ability, the guy with the 556mm will hit first, especially if multiple targets are involved. Besides, nobody today would go to war with a semiauto rifle.

I don't care that 556mm weighs less - that's nice, but peripheral to the central argument that the gun built around it points, shoots and hits quicker than a 30cal rifle.

all other things equal, it's better to put heavier projectiles on a target than lighter ones.

Sure, but all things are not equal - if somebody's shooting at me, I want to hit them BEFORE THEY HIT ME - as QUICKLY as I can in order to minimize my exposure and take advantage of theirs.

If I have the luxury of sitting behind cover, with plenty of range between me and the bad guys, give me the .30. If I have to get in close and fight inside the enemies engagement range, 556mm is the superior choice.

Ask any CIB who has used both calibers, which they prefer?

This CIB prefers 556mm - the M16 has always served me well. There are applications where 762 is required - automobiles, hard cover, long range - but for most infantry combat 556mm is a better choice.

every Vietnam Vet's DUTY to make sure these troops do not get the same treatment we did when we came home

Thank you for that.

Guess we'll just have to agree to disagree, I reckon.

That happens a lot around here seems like...

[Long Cut]

Hello from sunny (not) Keflavik, Iceland! Only five more months on "the Rock" to go...

Seems some good info is passing back and forth here. Unfortunately, I'm out of the loop as far as firearms news goes, how are things at home? Any new gun confiscation measures about, and how is the AWB sunset progressing?

As I'm now saving up cash from this deployment, the purchase of a good rifle is definetely on my list when I return to the States. Should I wait until the Ban susets, or just do it?

I've narrowed down my choices to the AR-180b from Armalite, the Gibbs Quest carbine referenced earlier in the thread, and a .308 if one presents itself for under seven bills.

Has anyone heard if the manufacturers have some plans afoot if the Ban sunsets?

[Shooter 2.5]

Those are all good choices. I would add a Yugo Mauser in 8MM because the rifles and the ammo is dirt cheap. The rifles are mint and under 200. I'm lacking a good 1000 yard rifle but I don't have an easy place to shoot it anyway.

There isn't anything going on about the AWB except the plea to keep writing letters to the Republicans. The hotheads are yelling about not voting for Bush if he signs it. If they were so politically astute before, why didn't they know he said that before the last election? I would rather they say what they intent to do so it doesn't reach his desk rather than what they won't do.

The manufacturers are silent about the issue. I can't see them adding bayonet lugs after the thing sunsets. It sounds sort of silly. Unless someone wants a direct copy of a Service Rifle.

[SSN558]

Whatchoo guys think?

It is uglier than its predecessor. When I go to Camp Perry and see the Army and Marine rifle teams shooting this piece, it will be time to sit down and have a good cry.

[SSN558]

From what I've read about the Korean War the M1 carbine wasn't even powerful enough to punch through the heavy quilted lining of a Chinese field jacket!

The M1 carbine round will definitely penetrate clothing, but not much more. Penetrating 1/2" exterior plywood is about all M1 carbine round can do. It has ballistics slightly better than the 9mm round. It excels in accuracy out to about 200 yards, mine will group about 6 inches at this range.

[Vinnie]

It's not a total loss. The Hk designers' research did lead to the invention of the boneless chicken patty.

Now THAT is funny. About choked on my coffee.

[Gothmog]

It better not be a pickaninny rail, that would make it a racist gun.

[nightdriver]

"This new ammunition will have composite cases, with brass bases and polymer walls, which will reduce weight of the complete ammunition, while maintaining compatibility with all 5.56mm NATO weapons."

This sounds like junk to me. Wait until they have some real catastrophic falilures that cost soldiers' lives with these supposedly superior cartridges.

I see the brass base coming out with the extractor and leaving the plastic body in the chamber, neatly fused in place.

Is this someones daydream or has this ammunition already been qualified?

[PatrioticAmerican]

In this day, a 500 yard target is to be hit with something other than a rifle, such as cannon or air strike. Well, that's the theory, anyway.

[PatrioticAmerican]

"Training helps, but there are limits to how much time soldiers can spend on the range - we can't train every infantryman to handle battle rifles effectively."

I would argue the opposite: There is no amount of time we cannot afford a rifleman on the range. Simply cancel one F-22 and there is anough ammo to last every member of the military two days a month on the range, every member, including the Air Force. A single super computer, costing $50+ million in total time and materials, can last all grunts all year.

We just recruit the bottom line and then don't trust them to be military. The Marines have it right: Every Marine is a shooter. If we don't trust a member of the military with a weapon, they ain't in the military. This social program, meals-on-wheels crap has got to stop.

[PatrioticAmerican]

There are a ton of Marines in Iraq who are clearing houses who beg for shorter M-4s versus the M-16s that they have. A "battle rifle" in 30 cal would be damned near useless to them in Iraq. Of course, some Marines wanted the 30 cal for those "appraoch the city and fire from afar" shots.

The fact is that for the majority of uses, the M-4 is a shooters best friend versus a larger, heavier rifle. I really wouldn't want to be shooting a 30 cal indoors.

I would far prefer to carry an M-4 with 750 rounds than an M-14 with 200 rounds, pound for pound.

Besides, we are just giving the grunts a bad round to shoot the M-16s with: A steel penetrator. Try a poly tip and thing change real fast.

[SauronOfMordor]

There are a ton of Marines in Iraq who are clearing houses who beg for shorter M-4s versus the M-16s that they have. A "battle rifle" in 30 cal would be damned near useless to them in Iraq. Of course, some Marines wanted the 30 cal for those "appraoch the city and fire from afar" shots.

Seems like, for house-to-house, the Marines would be better off with short-barrel shotguns

[PatrioticAmerican]

I would think they need the high capacity of the M-4. They do use shotguns for door knobs and other purposes, but I would want the 30 rounds in case door kicking becomes a gun fight.

Personal choice, I suppose.

[xp38]

I hope you know that your Camaro was built in Canada. I'm sure it was designed and engineered in the US somewhere though.