Posted on 07/30/2003 8:19:47 PM PDT by DPB101
My original point stands I believe. Since we are not in Pilate's home and are not privy to his thoughts or converstions, other than pronouncements to the crowd, nor are we privy to the high priests conversations, we cannot actually blame one or the other with certainty.
I believe God sent his son to die, so why isn't God responsible?
I think your overstating my position. See 181, I'm making a simple point about the responsibility to crucify.<p.It's starnge that you criticized my comment about events in the Bible. You seem to take on faith the entire history stated there and faith is not history.
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Halleluja!
The Mayor's wife
In my mind, it is not a matter of condemning the Jews, it is a response to their constant drumbeat that we are discriminating and rejecting them for something they didn't do. The reality is Jews were complicit in the death of Jesus. Denying history is denying Scripture. Denying Scripture is denying God
I am fully aware that it was all in the Plan of God, and I am so thankful for it.
Read Samuel about Gods warning of what effects a king would bring.
This needs to be said over and over. Even the Christians on this thread keep saying 'the Jews' insisted that Pilate execute Christ.
NO!
A small number of Jewish leaders so insisted. The reason they insisted was that every time Christ showed his face in public, thousands of Jews were showing up and thousands were slowly accepting that something huge and utterly without precedent was happening in their time and their place.
He fed the 'multitude.' The multitude didn't just happen to be there. They were there to see Jesus. The apostles were Jews.
So my quibble is with the terminology 'the Jews.' The Jews didn't do anything as a group. They acted as individual men and women who are free to accept or reject salvation. Some did. Some didn't. Some things never change.
I think St. Matthew's Gospel, courtesy of Catholic Online's Holy Bible online section at www.catholic.org says will do:
Matthew Chapter 27
1 1 2 When it was morning, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death.
2 They bound him, led him away, and handed him over to Pilate, the governor.
3 Then Judas, his betrayer, seeing that Jesus had been condemned, deeply regretted what he had done. He returned the thirty pieces of silver 3 to the chief priests and elders,
4 saying, "I have sinned in betraying innocent blood." They said, "What is that to us? Look to it yourself."
5 4 Flinging the money into the temple, he departed and went off and hanged himself.
6 The chief priests gathered up the money, but said, "It is not lawful to deposit this in the temple treasury, for it is the price of blood."
7 After consultation, they used it to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners.
8 That is why that field even today is called the Field of Blood.
9 Then was fulfilled what had been said through Jeremiah the prophet, 5 "And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the value of a man with a price on his head, a price set by some of the Israelites,
10 and they paid it out for the potter's field just as the Lord had commanded me."
11 Now Jesus stood before the governor, and he questioned him, "Are you the king of the Jews?" 6 Jesus said, "You say so."
12 And when he was accused by the chief priests and elders, 7 he made no answer.
13 Then Pilate said to him, "Do you not hear how many things they are testifying against you?"
14 But he did not answer him one word, so that the governor was greatly amazed.
15 8 Now on the occasion of the feast the governor was accustomed to release to the crowd one prisoner whom they wished.
16 9 And at that time they had a notorious prisoner called (Jesus) Barabbas.
17 So when they had assembled, Pilate said to them, "Which one do you want me to release to you, (Jesus) Barabbas, or Jesus called Messiah?"
18 10 For he knew that it was out of envy that they had handed him over.
19 11 While he was still seated on the bench, his wife sent him a message, "Have nothing to do with that righteous man. I suffered much in a dream today because of him."
20 The chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas but to destroy Jesus.
21 The governor said to them in reply, "Which of the two do you want me to release to you?" They answered, "Barabbas!"
22 12 Pilate said to them, "Then what shall I do with Jesus called Messiah?" They all said, "Let him be crucified!"
23 But he said, "Why? What evil has he done?" They only shouted the louder, "Let him be crucified!"
24 13 When Pilate saw that he was not succeeding at all, but that a riot was breaking out instead, he took water and washed his hands in the sight of the crowd, saying, "I am innocent of this man's blood. Look to it yourselves."
25 And the whole people said in reply, "His blood be upon us and upon our children."
26 Then he released Barabbas to them, but after he had Jesus scourged, 14 he handed him over to be crucified.
27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus inside the praetorium 15 and gathered the whole cohort around him.
28 They stripped off his clothes and threw a scarlet military cloak 16 about him.
29 Weaving a crown out of thorns, 17 they placed it on his head, and a reed in his right hand. And kneeling before him, they mocked him, saying, "Hail, King of the Jews!"
30 They spat upon him 18 and took the reed and kept striking him on the head.
31 And when they had mocked him, they stripped him of the cloak, dressed him in his own clothes, and led him off to crucify him.
32 19 As they were going out, they met a Cyrenian named Simon; this man they pressed into service to carry his cross.
33 And when they came to a place called Golgotha (which means Place of the Skull),
34 they gave Jesus wine to drink mixed with gall. 20 But when he had tasted it, he refused to drink.
35 After they had crucified him, they divided his garments 21 by casting lots;
36 then they sat down and kept watch over him there.
37 And they placed over his head the written charge 22 against him: This is Jesus, the King of the Jews.
38 Two revolutionaries 23 were crucified with him, one on his right and the other on his left.
39 24 Those passing by reviled him, shaking their heads
40 and saying, "You who would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save yourself, if you are the Son of God, (and) come down from the cross!"
41 Likewise the chief priests with the scribes and elders mocked him and said,
42 "He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! 25 Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him.
43 26 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now if he wants him. For he said, 'I am the Son of God.'"
44 The revolutionaries who were crucified with him also kept abusing him in the same way.
45 27 From noon onward, darkness came over the whole land until three in the afternoon.
46 And about three o'clock Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" 28 which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
47 29 Some of the bystanders who heard it said, "This one is calling for Elijah."
48 Immediately one of them ran to get a sponge; he soaked it in wine, and putting it on a reed, gave it to him to drink.
49 But the rest said, "Wait, let us see if Elijah comes to save him."
50 30 But Jesus cried out again in a loud voice, and gave up his spirit.
51 And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. 31 The earth quaked, rocks were split,
52 tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised.
53 And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
54 32 The centurion and the men with him who were keeping watch over Jesus feared greatly when they saw the earthquake and all that was happening, and they said, "Truly, this was the Son of God!"
55 There were many women there, looking on from a distance, 33 who had followed Jesus from Galilee, ministering to him.
56 Among them were Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee.
57 34 When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea named Joseph, who was himself a disciple of Jesus.
58 He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus; then Pilate ordered it to be handed over.
59 Taking the body, Joseph wrapped it (in) clean linen
60 and laid it in his new tomb that he had hewn in the rock. Then he rolled a huge stone across the entrance to the tomb and departed.
61 But Mary Magdalene and the other Mary remained sitting there, facing the tomb.
62 35 The next day, the one following the day of preparation, 36 the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered before Pilate
63 and said, "Sir, we remember that this impostor while still alive said, 'After three days I will be raised up.'
64 Give orders, then, that the grave be secured until the third day, lest his disciples come and steal him and say to the people, 'He has been raised from the dead.' This last imposture would be worse than the first."
37 65 Pilate said to them, "The guard is yours; 38 go secure it as best you can."
66 So they went and secured the tomb by fixing a seal to the stone and setting the guard.
Pardon the length - I have included the whole chapter, Matthew 27, to demonstrate how the Jews and Romans were both complicit in the crucifixion of Jesus.
20 The chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowds to ask for Barabbas but to destroy Jesus.
This scripture text states how the Jewish leaders of the time were involved in arranging Jesus' death and insuring that it was carried out - by someone other than themselves.
27 Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus inside the praetorium
These soldiers of the governor were Romans.
"1Th 2:14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they [have] of the Jews:
1Th 2:15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:"
The Jews killed Jesus Christ. Not you, the Romans, the Jews killed Christ.
Actually, this teaching was directed toward early Jewish converts who were experiencing persecution at the hands of Jewish non-converts. The earliest followers of Jesus were Jews, like he was, who came to believe he was the promised Messiah. Those Jews who rejected Jesus are the topic of Th2:15.
"The chief priests and the teachers of the law heard this and began looking for a way to kill him, for they feared him, because the whole crowd was amazed at his teaching." -Mark 11:18
Yes. I would agree entirely, except that our current form of government is intended to be participatory... Freeping bad government in the U.S. is a civic duty, not a Christian one. That said, there's no reason not to bring Christian ethics and principles to the debate.
Ok, I get your point.
Except that a "Jew for Jesus" is accepted by the Christian community as being a full-status Christian, while the Hasidics running the site want Christians to become "Noahides" (gentiles who follow the Seven Laws) rather than becoming full-status Jews.
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