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Job Loss Anger Should Fade
SAP Web site ^ | 7/30/2003 | Gartner Group

Posted on 07/30/2003 2:03:53 PM PDT by leadpencil1

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To: leadpencil1
The only way people will stop being angry is if some new technology is invented here and employs laid off tech Americans for a few years-- after that, those jobs, too, will go to India and China. It's a vicious cycle.
221 posted on 07/31/2003 6:40:41 AM PDT by GraniteStateConservative (Putting government in charge of morality is like putting pedophiles in charge of children.)
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To: Poohbah; Lazamataz
As for standard of living: EVERYTHING in America is inflated in price by those regulations. So eliminating them also makes a good standard of living a lot less expensive.

Actually, that would deflate the standard of living...at laeast yours, as I would promptly surround your house with old-fashioned smoke-stack industries, except we would save some money and skip the stacks. We would just put up fans and blow it all onto your property.

Anyways, you have an immense contradiction to resolve: How is it that we can effectively make business regulations so effectual here that they are indeed unavoidably costly...but the same folks in the bureacracy would never have a chance of making an effective software tariff (I will assume that you do admit that hardware tariffs are feasible)?

222 posted on 07/31/2003 6:51:06 AM PDT by Paul Ross (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!-A. Hamilton)
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To: Paul Ross; Poohbah
Poohbah and I have a difference of opinion. He believes software tariffs are unenforcable and would be widely-flouted; I do not. He believes there would be a War on Code; I do not.

I guess we should enact the tariff and see.

223 posted on 07/31/2003 6:55:56 AM PDT by Lazamataz (PROUDLY POSTING WITHOUT READING THE ARTICLE SINCE 1999!)
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To: hedgetrimmer
Can you recommend a good book on programming robot? One that I could use with a PC? thanks
224 posted on 07/31/2003 7:03:16 AM PDT by jpsb
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To: Willie Green
By 2050, anything that can be done manually, or intellectually, will be given to robots

The incentives for corporations to invest in the R&D to accomplish this degree of automation are also lacking...when it is far cheaper to just pour your production capital into a slave-labor hole like China. Even automation can't compete.

225 posted on 07/31/2003 7:03:17 AM PDT by Paul Ross (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!-A. Hamilton)
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To: dogbyte12
"By 2050, anything that can be done manually, or intellectually, will be given to robots."

If that actually comes to pass, then yes, most of the population will be unemployable in the sense of being needed for production. There would of course be some people needed to run and maintain the robot producers, but I follow your point.

That wouldn't make us 'doomed' though. Plenty of everything being produced is doom?

I think you've maybe fallen into the same rut the labor union guys do; they idolize the idea of labor per se. What's so amazingly great about a factory job, or for that matter 8-14 hours a day looking at little dots on a screen?

What's important is wealth, and wealth is anything that benefits each other.

Besides, on the geopolitical level, if all production becomes automated we can relocate all the factories back to the U.S. as the cost of labor will be exactly the same anywhere.

226 posted on 07/31/2003 7:04:42 AM PDT by No.6
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To: Poohbah; Cacaphonous; DoughtyOne
How will we know when we've won? When China discovers that you can't compensate for losing money on each transaction with a large volume of transactions.

In other words, precisely after the last US factory and software job has not just closed down, but been shipped to China. Then the Chinese will declare 'defeat' by RAISING THE PRICES on the goods they will by then have a monopoly of production capacity on. And we will have no ability to do anything other than pay it. No competing industry left.

Sounds like you better go back to the drawing board.

227 posted on 07/31/2003 7:10:12 AM PDT by Paul Ross (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!-A. Hamilton)
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To: Lazamataz
I guess we should enact the tariff and see.

I agree. Next we'll see Poohbah claiming their will be pistol-packing punk software 'dealers' hanging around outside the elementary schools trying to sell illegal software... "Hey kid, you want a score? I got some Lotus-Notes and Corel knock-offs for you..."

228 posted on 07/31/2003 7:14:31 AM PDT by Paul Ross (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!-A. Hamilton)
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To: No.6
I'm quite aware of different development methodologies. RAD doesn't obviate the need to actually figure out what you're doing, it just gives the customer something to see to refine their requirements.

Yep. The ideal is to meld the two into an approach that gives you continuous feedback from the users that you're on the right track.

The fast managers of today who are earning promotions by going offshore will three years from now be earning their next promotion by bringing BACK American developers and blaming the guy who was there before them for going offshore.

The incentive system these days is to make your money and move on before the long-term consequences of your decisions become obvious. The average tenure of a Fortune 500 CEO is now under 4 years. From CFO magazine:

'Short-term results: there is systemic 'short-termism' in the [CEO] market. The average tenure of a FTSE or Fortune 500 CEO is under four years. Ten years ago it was 10 years. New CEOs are given a relatively short amount of time to decide what they're doing and get results. The pressure for quick results comes from investors (especially the pension industry), who want results today. The churn, turn and burnout rate for CEOs is very high as a result.

'Lack of experienced candidates: over the past 15 years, large organisations have systematically de-layered from the top, losing anything up to five levels of senior and middle management. Years ago, senior executives probably started their career at the same organisation they ended it [at]. They would be sent all over the world [and] work in different roles - from engineering, to sales, to marketing - before joining the executive ranks. Their future would be mapped out and they would know, if they worked hard and were loyal to the company, where they were going in the organisation and when.

'A CEO who came up through the ranks probably held the No. 2 role for five years before taking over the No. 1 role when the incumbent retired. There is no longer the number and calibre of candidates within organisations that there used to be. And while training statistics will tell you that the investment has increased, in real terms, that is, the training dollars as a percentage of revenue has actually decreased. Not enough grey hair: over the past 10 to 15 years, the average age of a CEO has tumbled 15 to 20 years. Current CEOs have a lot less miles on the clock when they come into the role, and are unlikely to stay long enough to preside over the long-term strategic direction and future of the organisation.

'Help yourself careers: senior executives pretty much plan their own careers now, whereas years ago they had a solid career path, with training, and succession planning within their organisation. Senior executives now mostly train themselves - by undertaking an MBA or similar formal education - and will move around from company to company and country to country to gain the experience they need to climb the corporate ladder. Their loyalty is to themselves, their long-term plans involve themselves, and more and more are leaving the corporate world and electing to work to live, rather than to live to work. They are opting out in droves.'


229 posted on 07/31/2003 7:44:36 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Java/C++/Unix/Web Developer === needs a job at the moment)
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To: Cacophonous
You're forgetting to factor in the mass migrations to the States during that era. Plus, the US increased in size over the same period. A flat return to a 'Golden Era' is not possible, because the 'Golden Era' may just seem golden to us or because the other factors involved cannot be duplicated. It's somewhat like AlQ thinking the 7th century was their civilisation's Golden Era.
230 posted on 07/31/2003 8:09:10 AM PDT by Cronos (Bush 2004)
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To: Paul Ross
In other words, precisely after the last US factory and software job has not just closed down, but been shipped to China. Then the Chinese will declare 'defeat' by RAISING THE PRICES on the goods they will by then have a monopoly of production capacity on. And we will have no ability to do anything other than pay it. No competing industry left.

At which point, it becomes profitable for someone else--quite conceivably Americans--to do the work in question, and China has just priced themselves out of the market.

Sounds like you better go back to the drawing board.

You first.

231 posted on 07/31/2003 8:29:34 AM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.)
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To: Paul Ross; Lazamataz
I agree. Next we'll see Poohbah claiming their will be pistol-packing punk software 'dealers' hanging around outside the elementary schools trying to sell illegal software... "Hey kid, you want a score? I got some Lotus-Notes and Corel knock-offs for you..."

Wrong. What I do see is undercover sting operations against politically-selected businesses in such an environment. "Use of public-key cryptography" will be listed on an affadavit as justification for a dynamic entry search warrant. A disk of encrypted data with a lost decryption key will justify asset forfeiture.

In short, you'll get all of the wonderful anti-Constitutional aspects of the War on Drugs--the same War on Drugs that I'm not supportive of anymore. And you won't even need the drugs.

232 posted on 07/31/2003 8:37:03 AM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.)
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To: Poohbah
In short, you'll get all of the wonderful anti-Constitutional aspects of the War on Drugs--the same War on Drugs that I'm not supportive of anymore. And you won't even need the drugs.

The path to totalitarianism involves the continual stripping away of rights and liberties. The route doesn't pass through politically powerful areas -- it goes through politically disfavored areas. Drug users. Child pornographers. Gun owners. Whacky cults. Christian fundamentalists. Groups that are easy for the media to demonize.

The way it works is you invade the civil rights of disfavored groups with things like asset forfeiture, no-knock warrents, warrants issued on the basis of anonymous informants (who may or may not even exist).

Once the precedents have been in place for years, and all challenges have been ruled against by the courts, THEN these same powers can slowly be turned against more "mainstream" groups that prove annoying to the powers that be

233 posted on 07/31/2003 10:39:01 AM PDT by SauronOfMordor (Java/C++/Unix/Web Developer === needs a job at the moment)
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To: Poohbah
At which point, it becomes profitable for someone else--quite conceivably Americans--to do the work in question, and China has just priced themselves out of the market.

Wrong. They will by then own all the capital, after in defeat, they NATIONALIZE the whole kit and caboodle of the US investments therein. They will not be so stupid as to make our mistake and invest in their enemy. And they can then sell all the goodies to themselves as they will then be able to have a prosperous consumer class.

Rather than your learning how to use aa drawing board, I suggest instead, based on the quality of your replies, you learn how to farm in rice paddies. That may be all the Chinese will buy from America.

234 posted on 07/31/2003 2:16:10 PM PDT by Paul Ross (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!-A. Hamilton)
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To: Cronos
You're forgetting to factor in the mass migrations to the States during that era. Plus, the US increased in size over the same period

Those are irrelevant factors to the 'Golden Age'. And your peripheral assertions are erroneous. Regarding 'mass migrations' we have ongoing mass migrations into the country...the real problem is keeping all those third-worlders who want to migrate IN and jump on the welfare-gravy-train, OUT.

As for territorial size that is clearly irrelevant. Look instead for market share. There we are still growing like wildfire in a number of markets. We just have to start producing again to restore the balance of trade...and preserve our defense capability.

235 posted on 07/31/2003 2:27:02 PM PDT by Paul Ross (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!-A. Hamilton)
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To: Paul Ross
Wrong. They will by then own all the capital, after in defeat, they NATIONALIZE the whole kit and caboodle of the US investments therein.

Actually, they won't own all of the capital--already, some ChiComs are complaining about CHINESE firms outsourcing their production elsewhere.

They will not be so stupid as to make our mistake and invest in their enemy.

Small problem--if they don't, then all those funny green pieces of paper have essentially ZERO value to them--or anyone else.

Oh, BTW...in your scenario, the Chinese have to hold LOTS of US debt.

The US government would probably declare a "temporary" holiday on paying off ChiCom-held debt. The ensuing cash crunch would be fun to watch from this side of the Pacific.

And they can then sell all the goodies to themselves as they will then be able to have a prosperous consumer class.

Actually, they won't be able to do that--remember all those Chinese banks with nonperforming loans? You just convinced the major source of their income-generating assets--the US--to renege on its debts, AND pretty much ensured that they won't be able to sell a damn thing in the US. The resulting financial crash and mass shutdown of industrial activity puts Chinese workers out of their jobs, whereupon they don't have the money needed to be prosperous consumers...

Rather than your learning how to use aa drawing board, I suggest instead, based on the quality of your replies, you learn how to farm in rice paddies. That may be all the Chinese will buy from America.

And we'll make the SOBs pay through the nose for it in that scenario.

Gosh, you REALLY don't understand second and third-order effects, do you?

236 posted on 07/31/2003 2:35:29 PM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.)
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To: TopDog2
I lost my job, my house, my suv, my good credit rating and much of my pride 2 years ago. The system I worked on was outsourced by IBM to India. How soon can I forget that?
237 posted on 07/31/2003 2:40:04 PM PDT by gedeon3
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To: gedeon3
You can't and shouldn't. Darn shame that US citizens have to go through such hard times for misguided economic theories.
238 posted on 07/31/2003 2:43:56 PM PDT by TopDog2 (Deer are the spawn of satan! Wipe them out!!)
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To: Poohbah
Small problem--if they don't, then all those funny green pieces of paper have essentially ZERO value to them--or anyone else.

You fail to comprehend that they will use those funny green pieces of paper to buy newly-bargain-priced US commodities to feed their industrial maw. US coal, timber, iron ore, etc (again competitive after the dollar's collapse) and likely even oil from Alaska...they will have the political clout to coerce even the Greens into acceding to their Chinese companies drilling in ANWR.

Meanwhile, no US manufactures will be let in, no matter how low your paycheck goes Poohbah, because they will tariff the heck out of them. So learn to stoop. The Chinese will not hesitate to be protectionist even after they achieve ascendancy.

Once the manufacturing base is there, and the associated capital, the state of their banks and the state of trade with the US will become superfluous as the Chinese gradually increase real wages and take over as the primary market for their manufactures. This is analogous to a self-exciting AC motor. It just needs to be energized and started.

The US government would probably declare a "temporary" holiday on paying off ChiCom-held debt. The ensuing cash crunch would be fun to watch from this side of the Pacific.

They would just foreclose on the U.S. They will by then control the WTO, and will force all sorts of policies on us, demanding we pay up, or else the blue-helmeted UN troops with chinese names would swarm in. That will likely prove unnecessary as we certainly have enough quislings willing to do whatever they would say.

And China would have no problems with their banks, as they just bail them out with the Greenback stash they have accumulated. Just as we did with our own when several major banks hit the skids.

239 posted on 07/31/2003 2:51:08 PM PDT by Paul Ross (A nation which can prefer disgrace to danger is prepared for a master, and deserves one!-A. Hamilton)
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To: Paul Ross
Meanwhile, no US manufactures will be let in, no matter how low your paycheck goes Poohbah, because they will tariff the heck out of them.

Ah, but there are other places to sell than China, and they would either (a) lower their prices, or (b) get undersold.

So learn to stoop. The Chinese will not hesitate to be protectionist even after they achieve ascendancy.

Since being protectionist is pushing them closer and closer to bankruptcy, they aren't going to grab ascendancy.

Remember how Japan was going to be the world economic hyperpower 13 years ago?

They would just foreclose on the U.S.

Ah, yes. Turn a temporary cash crunch into a permanent one.

They will by then control the WTO, and will force all sorts of policies on us, demanding we pay up, or else the blue-helmeted UN troops with chinese names would swarm in.

In which case, Rule .308 would apply, wouldn't it?

That will likely prove unnecessary as we certainly have enough quislings willing to do whatever they would say.

Until the quislings discover the joys of getting lynched by their fellow Americans.

And China would have no problems with their banks, as they just bail them out with the Greenback stash they have accumulated.

Hey, doofus! In case you forgot...

The dollar COLLAPSED in your scenario! So their plan demands that the dollar hold its value, because it's what's going to prop up their banking system!

I knew that if I argued with you long enough, you'd hit an irreconcilable contradiction.

Just as we did with our own when several major banks hit the skids.

There's a BIG difference between us propping up a FEW banks experiencing TEMPORARY cash flow problems and the ChiComs trying to prop up EVERY bank in their country during PERMANENT cash flow problems.

240 posted on 07/31/2003 3:01:07 PM PDT by Poohbah (Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.)
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