God...not G-d

[grumple]

In light of the many perversions and jokes we send to one another for a laugh, this is a little different: This is not intended to be a joke, it's not funny, it's intended to get you thinking. Billy Graham's daughter was interviewed on the Early Show and Jane Clayton asked her "How could God let something like this happen?" (regarding the attacks on Sept. 11). Anne Graham gave an extremely profound and insightful response. She said "I believe God is deeply saddened by this, just as we are, but for years we've been telling God to get out of our schools, to get out of our government and to get out of our lives. And being the gentleman He is, I believe He has calmly backed out. How can we expect God to give us His blessing and His protection if we demand He leave us alone?" In light of recent events...terrorists attack, school shootings, etc. I think it started when Madeleine Murray O'Hare (she was murdered, her body found recently) complained she didn't want prayer in our schools, and we said OK.

Then someone said you better not read the Bible in school ... the Bible says thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, and love your neighbor as yourself. And we said OK.

Then Dr. Benjamin Spock said we shouldn't spank our children when they misbehave because their little personalities would be warped and we might damage their self-esteem (Dr. Spock's son committed suicide). We said an expert should know what he's talking about. And we said OK.

Then someone said teachers and principals better not discipline our children when they misbehave. The school administrators said no faculty member in this school better touch a student when they misbehave because we don't want any bad publicity, and we surely don't want to be sued (there's a big difference between disciplining, touching, beating, smacking, humiliating, kicking, etc.). And we said OK. Then someone said, let's let our daughters have abortions if they want, and they won't even have to tell their parents. And we said OK. Then some wise school board member said, since boys will be boys and they're going to do it anyway, let's give our sons all the condoms they want so they can have all the fun they desire, and we won't have to tell their parents they got them at school. And we said OK

Then some of our top elected officials said it doesn't matter what we do in private as long as we do our jobs. Agreeing with them, we said it doesn't matter to me what anyone, including the President, does in private as long as I have a job and the economy is good.

Then someone said let's print magazines with pictures of nude women and call it wholesome, down-to-earth appreciation for the beauty of the female body. And we said OK. And then someone else took that appreciation a step further and published pictures of nude children and then further again by making them available on the Internet. And we said OK, they're entitled to free speech.

Then the entertainment industry said, let's make TV shows and movies that promote profanity, violence, and illicit sex. Let's record music that encourages rape, drugs, murder, suicide, and satanic themes. And we said it's just entertainment, it has no adverse effect, nobody takes it seriously anyway, so go right ahead.

Now we're asking ourselves why our children have no conscience, why they don't know right from wrong, and why it doesn't bother them to kill strangers, their classmates, and themselves.

Probably, if we think about it long and hard enough, we can figure it out. I think it has a great deal to do with "WE REAP WHAT WE SOW."

Funny how simple it is for people to trash God and then wonder why the world's going to hell. Funny how we believe what the newspapers say, but question what the Bible says.

Funny how you can send 'jokes' through e-mail and they spread like wildfire but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.

Funny how lewd, crude, vulgar and obscene articles pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion of God is suppressed in the school and workplace.

Are you laughing?

Funny how when you forward this message, you will not send it to many on your address list because you're not sure what they believe, or what they WILL think of you for sending it. Funny how we can be more worried about what other people think of us than what God thinks of us.

Pass it on if you think it has merit. If not then just discard it... no one will know you did. But, if you discard this thought process, don't sit back and complain about what bad shape the world is in!

[hellinahandcart]

I didn't even use any bad words...

[HairOfTheDog]

I just keep ROFL..... It brought back memories from the old SNL days "Jane, you ignorant slut!"

[Ronly Bonly Jones]

It had a legitimate start among Orthodox Jewish scholars discussing pre-Roman Palestine.... but it caught on among the wrong crowd.

[potlatch]

but when you start sending messages regarding the Lord, people think twice about sharing.

I received this in an email quite some time ago and sent it to all my friends and relatives. It's a good article.

I am a Catholic and have NEVER before heard that not fully spelling God showed respect!!

On the contrary - I would think that each time we say or spell Gods name with respect and love - it gives Him pleasure!!

[safisoft]

I'm aware of all of that

From your posts, I would argue that you were not. Apparently, you did not even know that there is no Hebrew letter "J".

[safisoft]

Yud-Hey-Waw-Hey

I know that some "Sacred Name" people have argued thus, as well as many seminarians who have had to learn German before Hebrew, but I would simply point out that it is more likely German and Yiddish influences that gave us "Waw". Regardless, the pronunciation may in fact be as academic as how early English was pronounced... for instance, all our "J"s - can you prove they sounded like "JAY" as opposed to "IAY"?

My points were not so much about pronunciation, but about the letters themselves.

[safisoft]

My opinion is that such a debate falls under the squabbling that we were cautioned about

Possibly. But mocking others for such a conviction is uncalled for. What is sad about some posts on this thread is that they claim that they want to take a "libertarian" tack on it (e.g. "Let me do it my way") and then mock others for doing something. That is neither "libertarian" nor conservative... it is just poor manners.

[safisoft]

Do you disagree that the proper name for the Judeo-Christian deity is in fact "JHVH/IHVH/Jehova"?

Not only would conservative Jews disagree with you, but informed "Christians" as well. But since you already said you "know all about that", I suppose it is redundant for me to tell you that there IS NO SUCH NAME as "Jehovah" in Scripture (only a TRANSLATION error put in into the King James Version). There is NO SUCH LETTER in Hebrew "J". So the answer to your taunt is: NO, the God of the Hebrew and "Christian" Scriptures is NOT named "JHVH/IHVH/Jehova". There are literally dozens of Names for the Holy One of Israel, but you haven't even gotten close once in this entire thread. Those who can read Hebrew must be smirking at your vague rudeness.

[safisoft]

G-d allows the ineffable name to be erased for the sake of bringing peace between a husband and wife.

Thanks for your thoughtful post. This line caught my eye and tells so much about what people do not know about Judaism or the "Old Testament"- because it is the essence of grace, mercy, and justice. 1,700 years of twisting about what Jews of the "Old Testament" believed has created an impression that there is no "grace" in the "Law". How sad that the word "Torah" (literally "Instruction") has come to mean some cold hard granite to so many people.

Blessings upon you.

The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord, and He delights in his way. Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down; for the Lord upholds him with His hand. I have been young, and now am old; yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his descendants begging bread. He is ever merciful, and lends; and his descendants are blessed. Depart from evil, and do good; and dwell forevermore. For the Lord loves justice, and does not forsake His saints; they are preserved forever, but the descendants of the wicked shall be cut off. The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell in it forever. The mouth of the righteous speaks wisdom, and his tongue talks of justice. The Law [Torah] of his God is in his heart; none of his steps shall slide." Psalm 37:23-31

[William Terrell]

I use traditional symbols in the same way you do and find them as satisfying in relating to other folks. I'm just the type of person that has to reevaluate a tradition that from time to time gets my attention. Every time I see "G-d" it makes me want to think a phrase I avoid in favor of a tradition I do hold with, the commandments. There, God doesn't seem to leave any guesswork.

Yes, if Go- or -Od were used, I'd not care one way or the other.

I've used the apple a couple years now, for identification, so I guess you could say it's a tradition since putting it there is just reflex now.

[safisoft]

When I am in an environment where brothers spell God as "G-d" I will do so in order to honor their reverence of God. Jewish World Review is such an environment. When I am in an environment where GOD is used as spelled, I do so. Perhaps it is legalism to use G-d. It really doesn't matter. My liberty in God permits me to do either. My respect for the spiritual needs for brothers and sisters demands I recognize their need to respect Him as they feel led.

At last. Through all the coarseness and silliness, true wisdom! Well stated.

[ladyinred]

While I am not sure, I think the Jews spell it G-D because they do not speak the sacred name. Others who spell it that way will have to explain themselves for themselves.

[William Terrell]

I don't mean to imply anything. My interest in the use of the abbreviation is because it jolts me when I come across it, much like the C.E. and B.C.E., capturing my attention and bringing up all these questions. From time to time I go hunting answers.

Would you say then that the English 'g' 'o' 'd' started missing the 'o' when Jewish families started migrating to America and England before that?

How would the name "God" be writen in Hebrew, or Greek, or Aramaic? And how would one modify it in any of those languages to truncate it's full form? Has that been done in the past for those languages?

Another fellow on this thread can point to a rabbinical law the implys the practice, but no indication it was followed, as many of such laws from the same source are not followed, there are so many of them, and he didn't post any examples where the name of God had been abbreviated in those other languages. But he didn't want to discuss it further.

Can you refer me to something that explains the spelling difference in those languages and their usage?

[Dave Elias]

Well, you are not wrong, the same also being true of latin. However, my fundemental point is that the name of God as written in antiquity is of uncertain pronounciation, although its pictographical representation (we disagree only as to the english alphabet interpretation me Waw, you Vav) an arm, a dude with his hands in the air, a hook peg thing, and another dude with his hands in the air is written in its entirety. Because of the unique nature of the letters that make up YHWH (or YHVH if you prefer)it could be pronounced in a number of ways.

I maintain the correct pronounciation was widely known once (people were illiterate and would not have relied upon text for correct diction), but over the years this knowledge has been lost since it is not clear from the word. This ambiguity has been interpreted as deliberate in order to prevent people from speaking such a holy word.

However regardless of the derivation of the tradition it now clearly is an expression of faith to regard the word itself as holy. Fair enough. What is fascinating is how the practise of ommiting the 'o' in God basically turns the ritual on its head. That is in Hebrew the word can be written, but cannot be correctly spoken, whereas in English this is transposed to become a word that may be spoken but not written.

[safisoft]

Well, you are not wrong, the same also being true of latin. However, my fundemental point is that the name of God as written in antiquity is of uncertain pronounciation, although its pictographical representation (we disagree only as to the english alphabet interpretation me Waw, you Vav)

Well I suppose I may indeed be wrong about much, but what from my post is wrong, and how you declare it to be such with such conviction I am not sure, considering that it was precisely the point I was making.

Because of the unique nature of the letters that make up YHWH (or YHVH if you prefer)it could be pronounced in a number of ways.

I was not arguing that is should not be pronounced, but that it is not clear how one should pronounce it since the vowel pointings were not represented (and if they were, then the sheva and patach CERTAINLY do NOT result in slang American "YAHWAY". There are many theories, but all just that - theories.

a hook peg thing

I suppose some of the "waw" stuff also comes from confusion over how a consonant can sound like an "ooh" and in some phonetic soundings, a "waw" can be made to sound like an "ooh" better than a "vav". But then again, the "ooh" sound is not just a "vav" issue - other letters make it too! Maybe we can get some German speakers here to tell us who we can make those sounds as well < g >

I maintain the correct pronounciation was widely known once (people were illiterate and would not have relied upon text for correct diction)

No, rather their literacy was quite high. They were people of the Book. Reading was not only a right - it was a responsibility. They did, as you point out, know quite well how the Name was pronounced, since even if they substituted "Adonai" or "HaShem" as some do today, they in fact heard the High Priest say the Name each Yom Kippur as the Mishna records.

What is fascinating is how the practise of ommiting the 'o' in God basically turns the ritual on its head

Only in the minds of those who have other rituals. That, is the nature of ritual, isn't it?

[Dave Elias]

I respectfully draw your attention to the fourth word of the first line of my last post.

I wish to have a scholarly discourse with you, not to get into an arguement.

[He Rides A White Horse]

Possibly. But mocking others for such a conviction is uncalled for.

I never indicated that it was a one-sided thing.

[Dead Corpse]

From your posts, I would argue that you were not. Apparently, you did not even know that there is no Hebrew letter "J".

Obviously, you need to take a reading comprehension course. My post explicitly spells out the three most common permutations. Including the IHVH version. I am also fully aware of the Yod/Yow/Yah-Hay/Haw-Vah/Vaw/Vow-Hay/Haw varients in dilect and time period.

Which completely dodges the point I was trying to make that such a designator, even an incorrect one such as Yoweh, is MUCH closer to truth and reality than the generic deification moniker "God".

Don't be an imbecile. I wasn't trying to make any other point.

[safisoft]

Forgive me. You are of course quite gracious. When I read your response I found it thoughtful and gracious - my inattention to the first line is what caused my confusion. So sorry.