Replies

"you're combining 400 years in one sentence. "

So? Charlemagne wasn't really French. He was a Frank. The Franks were Germanic tribesmen who invaded Roamn Gaul.

"THe early German barbarians wanted the riches of the Roman lands and conquered them."

I think that is an oversimplification. Some of the Germanic barbarians like the Visigoths, were trying to get protection within the Empire. Both the Visigoths and Ostrogoths as well as other Germanic tribes were hardly strangers to the benefits of Roman civilzation and culture. Suer, wealth was part of it, but there were other factors which impressed them about Roman society.

"They then realised that this was a superior culture they captured (like hte Romans capturing Greece said 'Captive Greece encaptivated Rome', but even more so) and became completely Roman."

I don't think the Barbarians were fools, nor were they ignorant of Roman culture even before they invaded the Empire. The "invasion" of Roame by the Barbarians was a lengthy process and was started by the Roamn practise of incoporating barbarians into their military estrablishment, first as auxiliaries, later as legionnaires and foederati.

The Roamns did not view their borders the same way that modern states view theirs. The Roman border was a line between Roman culture and non-Roamn culture, not a line limiting Roamn influence and power. The Romans formed alliances with tribes beyond their borders and Roman trde goods and merchants and ideas crossed into barbarian territory. The Romans were able to project their influence beyond their borders.

I think even referring to a barbarian "capture" of Roamn or the "Fall" of Rome is msileading. The barbarians gradually infiltrated Roman soceity and the Roman state. The Roman state gradully eroded and collapsed from within. The later major barbarian incursions were more like the actions of scavengers than predators.

"Rome did not become Germanicized as the Germans had nothign culturally to offer Rome."

Are you SURE Rome was not Germanicized? The trappings of Roamn government may have persisted for a time, but the reality of Germanic social realtionships gradually replaced them. The idea of a citizen owing allegience to a state wa gradully replaced by a Germanic concept of a warrior class owing allegience to a powerfiul warlord. The Latin Languages and peoples are the products of intermingling of Germanic and Roman origins.

"The Germans became Romanized whether within or without hte Empire."

Precisely. But I think there was also a Germanization of Roman territory. I don't think the Germans were culturally or socially destitute.

"Modern Western civilisation is nearly exclusively Roman with Christian morals."

To a degree. But I think that the Renaissance with its rebirth of interest in Rome and Greece is responsible for a lot of that. I don't think feudalism was a Roman concept.

To a degree. But I think that the Renaissance with its rebirth of interest in Rome and Greece is responsible for a lot of that. I don't think feudalism was a Roman concept.

I was wrong. You are correct. The middle Ages would seem to be a Germanic period with a development towards the Roman influenced world of today.

The German-Celts did have allegiances first to tribe and then to sept then clan etc. as seen in the overKings of Ireland and England (even though one was Celtic and the other Saxon). You're also correct that the idea of a nation state disintegrated after the fall of Rome replaced by clans, tribal affiliations etc. all leading up to the super-clan you might call it, of Christendom. Must have been something -- until the 7th century all of western Eurasia and North Africa and large chunks of the middle east were Christendom.