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Home-schooling standoff (MA Liberals try to get state custody for 'abused' home-schooled kids)
Metrowest Daily ^
| 6/13/03
| Beecher
Posted on 06/13/2003 12:26:29 PM PDT by pabianice
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To: pabianice
361
posted on
06/16/2003 6:10:08 PM PDT
by
ladylib
To: CyberCowboy777
Thanks CC.
362
posted on
06/16/2003 6:54:04 PM PDT
by
whipitgood
(It's a beautiful world we live in)
To: cgk
Regarding PA vs NJ, my husband and I are both originally from PA and when we had our daughter (now 6), we finally landed with a mortgage in NJ, after living in NYC and elsewhere. For the first 4 or so years of her life, I loudly and regularly expressed my desire to return to PA where most of our family members still live.
Then I began to be interested in homeschooling and soon determined that remarkably, NJ is one of the easiest states in which to homeschool. There are very minimal regulations, no yearly requirements, no submissions to school districts etc, and if any local official requests info, it is their burden to prove the request as necessary in the first place. Kindergarten is not compulsory, official schooling is required by law to begin at six but even so, NJ homeschoolers are innocent until proven guilty.
At the same time, I discovered that PA is often much more restrictive and can be tedious in its requirements, although that seems determined by where you live specifically - certain areas/jurisdictions are more invasive than others, apparently. Some Freepers in PA say they have never had a problem with anyone while others say it's been daunting.
At any rate, I no longer nag about moving back to PA, as we intend to continue homeschooling indefinitely, and of course have joined HSLDA anyway - there are SOME problem cases in NJ and you just never know! And of course, there's no comparison between the cost of living in NJ vs PA - housing cost differences alone are enough to make one weep. Hard.
Something else worth mentioning, as someone else said, there are so many local homeschool organizations out there. Countywide ones, secular ones, religious-based ones, statewide ones (ENOCH here in NJ is good), plenty of places that cater to homeschool groups, for example, the county group we started with offered gymnastics at the local gymnastics school, also swim lessons at the local swim school, with discounted rates for the group. The one to which we currently belong has a "learning center" every other week where the kids get together for class with their age groups (I just finished co-teaching my daughter's third semester class, which was on birds), have gym etc, also belong to the same swim school, go on monthly field trips to places like the Crayola factory in eastern PA, planetariums, museums etc.
There are so many resources, so many groups, socialization is such a non-issue. I just spent a couple hours this morning shopping for a first grade curriculum, the options are mindboggling! :) I need to find a program that allows for the moderate inclusion of my 2 1/2 year old son, or he'll drive us all crazy during school. And congratulations on the birth of your daughter, she is beautiful. We just had our third and final, another daughter, on Dec 22.
363
posted on
06/17/2003 12:33:18 PM PDT
by
agrace
To: agrace
Thank you SO MUCH for that wealth of information on PA and NJ... We're a couple years away from moving, but we're also a couple years away from homeschooling, and I want to make sure I have all the info down before we get there.
We're currently in CA unfortunately. Hubby's family is in PA and NJ... My family is in northern CA and now OR. It's tough trying to decide where we should live - probably where most of the kids in the family live as most of them are currently under 5 yrs old: PA or NJ.
And I'm glad to hear about the "socializing" aspects you're enjoying. That leftist complaint about homeschooling doesn't stick with me - never has. I think their complaint (a la Estrich) has more to do with lack of socialISM indoctrinating our children (not THEIR children), than our children not hanging out with school pals. I have no doubt that whereever we live I'll be able to find likeminded homeschooling families for sports, field trips, etc.
And thank you... and CONGRATULATIONS on your own new baby! I bet you still just.... smell her and just marvel at it. :) That wonderful baby scent. I do.
364
posted on
06/17/2003 12:47:33 PM PDT
by
cgk
(Bob Geldof: "President Bush is radical, in a positive sense. Clinton did f*&% all.")
To: spokanite
Well, you probably would not have scored a 1600 anyway!
365
posted on
06/17/2003 1:04:02 PM PDT
by
rollin
To: nmh
They want to be the exception to the rule because they want the publicity.
To: Sloth
The Constitution of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts gives the state the right to impose such a rule!
To: ml/nj
Well, here's what John Adams wrote in the Massachusetts State Constitution:
"Wisdom, and knowledge, as well as virtue, diffused generally among the body of the people, being necessary for the preservation of their rights and liberties; and as these depend on spreading the opportunities and advantages of education in the various parts of the country, and among the different orders of the people, it shall be the duty of legislatures and magistrates, in all future periods of this commonwealth, to cherish the interests of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries of them; especially the university at Cambridge, public schools and grammar schools in the towns; to encourage private societies and public institutions, rewards and immunities, for the promotion of agriculture, arts, sciences, commerce, trades, manufactures, and a natural history of the country; to countenance and inculcate the principles of humanity and general benevolence, public and private charity, industry and frugality, honesty and punctuality in their dealings; sincerity, good humor, and all social affections, and generous sentiments among the people."
This is the unique part of the Massachusetts Constitution that gives the Commonwealth the right to make home schoolers accountable to the public for the education of their children. You can interpret it as you wish, but it tells me that Adams would approve of the state's interest in the education of its citizens.
To: SarahW
The school district in this case rejected the plan because it was a non-plan, not a serious effort to satisfy the minimal requirements set forth by the school district but more jiberish aimed more at making a point and getting publicity than informing the school district of their plans. There's a reason why the courts would take such a drastic action as giving custody to DSS. Look behind the sensational headlines and attention getting one liners here and maybe you'll start to get the picture that these people are different from all of the competent, level-headed home schoolers across this country.
To: ConstitutionLover
Even allowing that the MA constitution enables the government to mandate that certain educational standards be met -- which I think is a pretty liberal reading of the rather vague, preamble-esque text you posted -- I would say that the burden of proof is upon the state to show that the parents are *failing* to educate their children, not that the parents have to prove that they are succeeding. As someone else pointed out on this thread, the state appears to lack probable cause in this situation. Has anyone even alleged that the Bryant children are, for example, illiterate? In the absence of such evidence, I see no reason why their parents are obligated to prove their fitness to educate any more than any other parents are required to prove that they aren't abusive.
370
posted on
06/17/2003 1:45:22 PM PDT
by
Sloth
("I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" -- Jacobim Mugatu, 'Zoolander')
To: ConstitutionLover
state's interest in the education of its citizens I would agree........ an interest.
The question is can a state FORCE compliance to education standards and testing. Would Adams agree that the State could force socialist indoctrination or one particular religion? Once you give the state supreme power (I would argue that Adams was against this) to FORCE education and by it's standards your right to self determination and thus the right to Liberty and the pursuit of happiness are taken. Rights that cannot be forfeited or taken by State or Fed as they are inalienable rights foundational to the U.S. Constitution, making them Fact of law.
The state can only intervene if life or property is at risk per the rule of law. Children studied at home may or may not be 'harmed' as determined by some abstract social/economic standards (who sets the standards and will you agree when 'they' are diametrically opposed to your way of life?) but the body or harm cannot be produce in fact so the government has no place.
The State of MA should be wisely spending taxed dollars promoting more efficient and less costly forms of education, this case proves that the opposite is really true. I submit that they are in violation of the Massachusetts State Constitution using the very same quote of same.
371
posted on
06/17/2003 2:00:17 PM PDT
by
CyberCowboy777
(Professional FReeper. Do not attempt.)
To: Sloth
You'd have to take up your criticism of the wording of the State Constitution with John Adams which I assume you'd have a great deal of difficulty doing.
No one would claim that the children are illiterate or even poorly educated. The problem here is that the Bryants in their zeal for defying the laws of the State of Massachusetts lost custody of their children so now the state who has custody is calling the shots, or at least trying to. If they had cooperated long ago and simply satisfied the very minimal requirements of the local school district, which by the way, does not necessarily require testing, they would have retained custody and been left alone except for filing a very simple annual education plan. Their refusal to cooperate at even the most basic level with any kind of government oversight is what has handed the home schooling movement a tremendous setback. We should be condemning their actions instead of applauding them.
To: ConstitutionLover
If the colonist had cooperated long ago and simply satisfied the very minimal requirements of the king they would have been left alone except for filing a very simple annual taxation plan.
How much capitulation should we give the government regarding our inalienable right to self-determination? How much Government involvement is to much? When can we say enough is enough? When they start teaching what they feel like and stop teaching what the parents want? When they start arresting people for not going to school meetings? When they start arresting and taking children because they do not want them to take a test.
You are an apologist for the King.
373
posted on
06/17/2003 2:11:21 PM PDT
by
CyberCowboy777
(Professional FReeper. Do not attempt.)
To: CyberCowboy777
What a ridiculous analogy! I never heard of a "taxation plan." To equate a one or two page education plan with the issues the colonists were facing (taxation without representation, forced quartering of troops, confiscation of arms, religious and speech restrictions etc.) makes a mockery of what this country fought for in the 18th century. John Adams and the rest of the founding fathers would be insulted by your comments!
Do you really believe this man was arrested for not going to a meeting???? The parents had the right to teach what they want but because of their refusal to simply inform anyone else, they lost that right and custody of their children. They brought this whole mess on themselves.
To: ConstitutionLover
John Adams and the rest of the founding fathers would be insulted by your comments! You are totally void of the spirit of the Founding Fathers. You would give up liberty in order to secure your ideas of social progress.
Unless you can prove that these kids were 'hurt' by a factual reasonable standard there is no justification for the state to be involved.
Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.
- Daniel Webster
Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies, The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
- C.S. Lewis
375
posted on
06/18/2003 10:00:23 AM PDT
by
CyberCowboy777
(Professional FReeper. Do not attempt.)
To: ConstitutionLover
Do you really believe this man was arrested for not going to a meeting????George Bryant said he was arrested six years ago, after not attending a meeting that the city contends he was summoned to. The meeting was called by the Waltham School Department for his failure to send his children to school.
How much capitulation should we give the government regarding our inalienable right to self-determination? How much Government involvement is to much? When can we say enough is enough? When they start teaching what they feel like and stop teaching what the parents want? When they start arresting people for not going to school meetings? When they start arresting and taking children because the parents do not want them to take a test.
When will you get your hands off my life? I am not hurting you body or property.
376
posted on
06/18/2003 10:03:46 AM PDT
by
CyberCowboy777
(Professional FReeper. Do not attempt.)
To: CyberCowboy777
You can quote all the famous people you want but it still doesn't make their words relevant in this case. You know nothing about the founding fathers except what has been drilled into your little head by the extremist libertarians who claim to be defending their "spirit".
The fact is that the formation of any government requires the surrendering of some liberties. You are obviously unwilling to surrender any liberty which means you should find yourself a society somewhere in the world that has no government. Good Luck!
To: CyberCowboy777
You are obviously quite naive if:
1. You believe everything you read in the newspaper
and
2. You would believe a statement made by a nutcase like that.
To: Sloth
At the present time, the state is not trying to make the parents prove that they are succeeding. No one, not the state nor the local school district, ever suspected that the parents were not succeeding. In fact, even if there was a concern there, I don't think the local school district would have intervened. They tend to stay out of it as long as the minimal requirements are met. Initially, the Bryants were only asked to file an education plan which they adamantly refused to do. After many legal battles, the state finally took custody of the children. I admit that seems to be pretty heavy handed but how do you deal with parents who refuse to abide by the laws which, by the way, the vast majority of home schooling parents find neither unfair nor obtrusive. In any case, the time for proving competence or incompetence is long past. Unfortunately, the state now has custody of the children and is attempting to insure they have an adequate education. I don't think it should have ever come to this but the parents are intent on making their point. Maybe they will be able to get the laws changed in MA by their actions but I question whether putting their children through this turmoil is the right way of going about doing that.
To: ConstitutionLover
First, I am not a libertarian.
Second, what Liberties did the Founding Father ask us to give up?
Give me an example of any Founding Father advocating FORCE education.
380
posted on
06/18/2003 11:23:51 AM PDT
by
CyberCowboy777
(They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters.)
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