Teachers earn more than editors & reporters

email ^ | Craig J. Cantoni

[hsmomx3]

The Summer 2003 edition of the education journal "Education Next" has statistics on teacher pay from the Bureau of Labor Statistics that match my own research. To quote: "Teachers earn more per hour than architects, civil engineers, mechanical engineers, statisticians, biological and life scientists, registered nurses, university-level foreign-language teachers, and editors and reporters." The statistics exclude benefits, which are far richer for teachers than for private-sector employees.

On a related note, the web site of a private citizen has great graphs and stats on government spending. One graph shows how education productivity has declined by 70 percent over the last 40 years, based on the ratio of SAT scores to inflation-adjusted per-pupil spending. The graph can be found at:

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/education.htm

Regards,

Craig J. Cantoni

Capstone Consulting Group

480-661-8175

Fax 480-661-8155

[ladylib]

Geez, you're touchy, aren't you?

"Yes, we all work hard to pay our bills and taxes. Not sure why you mention this."

Not sure why I mentioned this? What's the big deal! We all work hard and pay our taxes. Why should teachers be any different? Why should they be put on a pedastal?

Come on, it's hard to fire a teacher who has been in a system since God knows when. That's what school administrators tell parents when parents want teachers out. They whine it costs too much.

[Clara Lou]

One of my students had several pages of math homework to do every week... But she then informed me that the teacher never graded the homework!
And you believed her? One thing I learned early: When my child comes home from school with a story that sounds outrageous, go to school and get the other half of the story. Then decide what to believe. The kid may be right, or not.

[DainBramage]

Most teachers are nothing more than glorified civil servants. They get four months vacation, get home everyday by 3:30 , have weekends free and have federal holidays off. They are protected from having to ever produce anything of value, and they have unlimited job security. What a bunch of bull. Teachers these days are the least educated, creative people on earth. They have the cushiest jobs, and they under preform even most of their own students. They get tax rebates for being a teacher, and I have yet to meet one of them who actually raises their own children. I am sick of the grading papers baloney. Most teachers deserve the scorn they get for their entitlement attitude.

You don't know many teachers, or you don't tell the truth easily.

Four months vacation? lol Get home everyday by 3:30? LOL My wife gets there at 7:30 and never leaves before 4:30 and rarely eats lunch due to parent meetings or or covering another class. And wow, she has raised five kids, all in honors classes with 4.0s.

Shes taught for 7 years and makes 38,000. She regularly gets cursed out by parents whose child hasn't done a single assignment but wants her to pass them anyway, or shakes their genitals at her, or speaks only spanish.

BTW she's not in the union and by choice, and there are many more just like her. Be very careful about lumping them all together. Its not their job to baby sit, but to teach. They cannot make them learn, they have to be taught that from home for free.

The demand for teachers is very high because most won't stay in it because of the abuse, not the pay. In Dallas this year they started out several hundred short. If the market demand is there, then price goes up, just like your job. What a country.

[Principled]

I see. You are wanting to equate pay level with test scores. It's an obvious thing to do. After all, it's what goes on everywhere else! You pay for what you get, right?

Well, public ed is a monopoly. It is, in economic terms, an inferior good... meaning the more money you have, the less you demand it.

For this reason, pub ed has ALL the crap of society and only SOME of the good stuff. This is why non-public schools seem to do more with less. As an anology; public schools take mostly physically handicapped kids and try to make them olympic athletes. Non-public schools take mostly college athletes to make olympians out of. Of course the non-public group would make more olympians at a lower cost.

It is necessary to eliminate the monopoly AND necessary to impose user fees or tuition. I'd also support voluntary attendance. If they fail, screw 'em. I like freedom fries, and "somebody's got to boil them"!

Semi private is a school that has only a portion of it's costs paid by gov't and the remainder by private sector. THis is the type of school I wish ALL schools were.

[JoeSchem]

And you believed her?

She was a 4.0 student who completed all her homework and wanted to grow up to be a second grade teacher. So yes, I did believe her, and still do.

[Principled]

I just know that whenever the issue comes up about parental choice in schools, the teachers go ballistic.

Please change that to "SOME" teachers go ballistic. I would venture that just as many support choice as oppose. I know lots of teachers who support - I wonder if Semper911 supports choice?

[supercat]

The demand for teachers is very high because most won't stay in it because of the abuse, not the pay.

How much of the abuse comes from administrators who have to justify their own existence?

[Semper911]

the teacher never graded the homework!... And you believed her?

It most likely was true. It is a physical impossibility to grade every piece of homework. The best a teacher can do is check to see that it was done, and make sure that the tests are closely related to the homework.

Then if a student is doing the homework (practice problems), the evidence will be in the test grade.

[Principled]

We all work hard to pay bills - I would assert same is true for similar percentages in ALL fields.

It's not hard to get rid of a teacher. Simple non-renewal is all it takes. No reason needed. No meeting required. Nada. Just a form that says the system will not be offering you a contract next year. Did you even know teachers work on one year contracts and must be offered a contract every year?

Touchy? I just asked a question. Sorry.

[Semper911]

admin just "non-renews" the contract. No reason need be given

It really isn't that way in my state. It is next to impossible to get rid of a teacher, even with good cause. All a teacher really has to do to keep his/her job is show up, most of the time. The rest of us have to pick up their slack to make the building run smoothly.

[Clara Lou]

It most likely was true.
In math, that may be the case. Geometry and Algebra require a lot of practice. I don't teach math. In my classroom, if I assign it, there's a 98% chance that the assignment [all or some parts of it] are going to be graded. I don't do check-offs. The students feel cheated.

[HostileTerritory]

As another datapoint, I am an editor. I probably make more than I would as a teacher in my state with the same years of experience, and I have a much less stressful job. I'm in my mid-20s and I make 50% more than a starting teacher would in the city where I live, and this is not a pleasant district in which to teach.

I'm not saying this to brag. I'm in an area of publishing that pays better than trade publishing because it's considered a lot less interesting and desirable. The whole idea of the comparison in the subject of this thread is pointless. Teachers make less than plumbers. They make more than supermarket baggers. They make more than nuns and less than college professors. Who cares? We entrust our children to them; more importantly, we entrust to them the children of parents who don't or won't take care of their kids. Teachers are not above criticism, but in my opinion, they are way above the contempt they routinely receive in our country. Thank God that no one ever lumps me in with the bad editors who can't be fired because they have friends in high places.

Many of the people I work with tried teaching for a year and gave up. They're happier in publishing. Many others were teachers for 15 or 20 years. Several of them try publishing for a few years and get drawn back into the classroom. It's not because of the pay or the conditions in publishing. It's because they have a calling as teachers. I respect them for it, even as it is not a calling I share.

[Principled]

What would happen if you discussed questions on homework, but gave no grade except observed quizzes in lieu of a homework grade?

[Diva Betsy Ross]

Well perhaps your wife is one of the few good ones, the others I have worked with and known all my life are lazy, self centered slobs. In my job, well, I teach for free. I have a high passion for education and for leraning and I love my job.. I get no pay, no benefits no sick days, holidays or vacation. I work 24/7 for free. I don't expect anyone to pick up my tab or increase my benefits. I deal with many issues a day and I get little respect and no awards. I still will keep my job and I will die fulfilled. I am a homeschool mom of two great boys. I am lucky to have the greatest job on earth and I will do it all for FREE. Are you saying that your wife's co-workers who are in the union are all struggling, hard working ,teachers who work their butts off just to be able to have the joy of instilling wisdom upon young people. I thought not. I said Most teachers are glorified civil servants. They have an entitlement attitiude, they deserve the scorn they get. Perhaps your wife is the exception to the rule. A goo dold fashioned , conservative hard working , educated teacher who loves to teach.

[Clara Lou]

It is next to impossible to get rid of a teacher
The first year at my present campus, I taught across the hall from a very nice fellow. The odd thing was that I heard all kinds of sounds indicating that the students were running the classroom. This went on and on. Then, one day, I found him sitting on the floor out in the hallway with his head in his hands while his students, 6th-graders, were having a great time alone in the classroom. This is the only time in my professional career, so far, that I have gone to the principal and told him all that I had observed about another teacher. [Turns out that the teacher had bi-polar disorder. He was a self-indulgent mess on top of it all.] The guy was gone the next year-- out of teaching.

[DainBramage]

How much of the abuse comes from administrators who have to justify their own existence?

Not so much abuse as indiffernce and hesitation to follow through on diciplining problem kids.

The reason school taxes are so high are because we give free school,food, and supplies to alot of kids whose parents don't pay taxes ie illegals.

[ladylib]

I'd like to know why other school districts in my area pay their teachers less and the kids' test scores are higher that's all. Wouldn't you be curious if you were paying $4,000 a year in school taxes, the exact amount it takes to educate one child in the local parochial school as opposed to the $11,000 it takes to educate a public school student in my town?

I support voluntary attendance, parents paying for their kids' education (just don't soak people for schools they DON'T want so they can afford to pay for the education they want for their children.) I would be very happy with that. Unfortunately, the teachers unions aren't happy with that notion.

I guess I could go for charter schools too, but it's very hard to start them here, what with the teachers unions and the local boards of education doing everything in their considerable power to stop them.

The only good thing about education in my state is the very lenient homeschooling laws, the few really good public schools, and those little parochial schools that do so much with so little.

Enjoy your evening.

[goodnesswins]

I hope you don't teach comparative statistics.

[Diva Betsy Ross]

It is a valid statement that is made by many people, including most people I know. That includs 5 ex- public school teachers.

[Clara Lou]

What would happen if you discussed questions on homework, but gave no grade except observed quizzes in lieu of a homework grade?
I'm pretty sure my students would feel cheated and stop doing the work-- but my students are middle schoolers. They are overwhelmed at the idea of regular homework and quizzes. After all that "work," they want a grade. What really knocks them for a loop is that they have no opportunity to "redo" quizzes and tests for a better grade. [I teach Spanish-I for high school credit.]