Beware the Unintended Consequences II (Conceal & Carry)

checksandbalances.com ^ | 5/28/03 | Checks and Blances

[Mulder]

I find no special wording in the Constitution that allows one person's irrational fears to outweigh another person's right to self defense.

Well said. I spent a few hours on this very subject with some of the numbnuts who disagree with that.

Here's part of what I posted :

If a business owner doesn't want to deal with the general public, then they need to either close up shop, or go the internet route.

If they choose to open their doors to the general public, then they have to deal with the "general public". This involves them dealing with minorities, gays, old folks, young folks, dumb folks, immigrants, people who stink, people who wear too much perfume, hippies with long hair, and yes, people who are armed.

The bottom line is:

I refuse to be treated like a second-class citizen simply because I am armed

If a business owner doesn't like the way I look and they want me to leave, I'll gladly leave. If they have a private club, and I'm not "on the list" (such as Costco or Sams), I won't enter.

Otherwise, they either deal with the general public or they don't.

[FreedomCalls]

It's about freedom to associate, which includes the freedom to NOT associate.

I don't have a problem with an individual owner declaring his business smoke-free either.

Do you have a problem with a business owner declaring a place "negro free"?

[Mulder]

He cannot expect the law to provide a penalty for a customer not following his rules when he has not informed the customer of what they are.

Nor can he expect the law to provide a penalty when those rules are burdensome to the patron.

For example, a business owner can't legally demand that someone in a wheelchair get up and walk around his store.

Nor can he legally demand than any women entering his store remove their tops after entering.

And likewise, he can not legally demand that lawfully armed citizens surrender their means to self-defense upon entry into his store.

If a business owner doesn't want to deal with gunowners, that is certainly his business. But it doesn't give him the right to expect there to be a law enforcing his irrational beliefs.

[FreedomCalls]

Your right to carry doesn't override his property rights.

So you can declare your place "For Whites Only" legally?

[FreedomCalls]

All are invited.

Except gunowners.

[Mulder]

Freedom of speech is an unalienable right, but if I owned a business and a bunch of lefties came in and started telling all of my customers how evil conservatives are, I would most certainly have the right to throw 'em out.

Of course you do. Not only that, but you would have the Right to expect the law to arrest them if they refuse to leave. You would also have the Right to recover any damages the tresspassing group inflicts. Trespass laws have been a foundation of Western law for hundreds of years.

But if you have a business that is open to the public, you can't simply post a sign saying "no (fill-in-the-blank) allowed" AND expect the law to enforce it. The exceptions to this (such as "no soliticing" signs) are few and far between. And for good reason.

It should definitely not be a criminal act for a legally armed American to enter a public business. But a lot of so-called "2nd amendment supporters" seem to support that.

[harpseal]

While I may, repeat may have broken a law unintentionally, sice I had no felonious intent there can be no finding of guilty of a felony. Given the absurd nature of some laws and the proliferation of laws it is highly probable that just about everyone has broken some law someplace come time. So be it.

[ModernDayCato]

sice I had no felonious intent there can be no finding of guilty of a felony

Bzzzt...that is incorrect. Here in our wonderful state, you don't need felonious intent, just possession of a firearm in a school or a bar. Sometimes I collect money from machines at bars. I ALWAYS carry, and each time I do it I am in technical violation of the law. Period. And that's straight from the firearms compliance unit of the CT State Police.

But at least our taxes are low (/sarcasm).

[harpseal]

Oh well so be it. I guess I am an outlaw and I will ive with the consequences.

[cinFLA]

The owner's rules cannot require that you give up your rights. Otherwise, he can have a rule dissallowing blacks.

Since you agree that the owner cannot set the rules for his business then you must agree that he has no say in whether his establishment is smoking or non-smoking. It is up to society to determine this issue.

[ModernDayCato]

Yep, same here. I'm just hoping that no overzealous cop ever catches a glimpse of steel and gets out the cuffs.

Since most of my collection work is in Bridgeport I don't have to worry about it, since most of the cops are either sleeping or running for their lives.

[Clinging Bitterly]

Strange, that places have laws like that.
In Oregon, carry in bars, churches, and what have you is not restricted. Schools are restricted to only holders of conceal permits. I guess our legislature understands that what few shootings there have been in such places were not done by law abiding citizens.

I like our shall issue status (though I'd rather not, so I don't, ask for state permission to excersise a right), and the lack of those stupid ideas that one shoud never pack in the tavern or in church. The whole idea is dumb, if you think about it, having laws that are totally unnneccesary.

Dave in Eugene

[Squantos]

Albeit this one is from a SC link the Texas State Rifle Association has given me a bunch of these business cards to leave at such business's when they say no guns !

Shooter 2.5 may have a scan of the reverse side which is just as kewl !

Stay Safe !

[ModernDayCato]

It actually gets worse. The state has pressured cops into getting permits. Hypotheticlly if they're off duty not even THEY can carry in bars or schools, which in practice isn't going to happen.

[Blood of Tyrants]

Society can only set rules that provide for an orderly and reasonably safe environment (i.e. laws against smoking while fueling your car, yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theather, etc.

When it comes to outlawing smoking in resturaunts and bars and other public places, they have gone too far.

[Shooter 2.5]

I couldn't find the location of the website that had the t-Shirts or the coffee mugs.

[Shooter 2.5]

I'll get the website where they can buy these on the next post. I couldn't copy both the website and the image location.

[Shooter 2.5]

Here's the address to the Texas State Rifle Association's online store. http://www.tsra.com/sto/ban_card.htm

[Just another Joe]

Do you have a problem with a business owner declaring a place "negro free"?

Actually, I don't.
I wouldn't do business there, and probably neither would the vast majority of people that I know. But if the owner of that business wants to run off business from people that might otherwise do business there, both black and white, I believe that is his perogative.