photo by Cvetin Cilimanov for Antiwar.comPosted on 05/20/2003 8:51:59 AM PDT by Destro
Wolfowitz in Skopje – What Next for Macedonia?
by Christopher Deliso
May 20, 2003
A total eclipse of the full moon on Friday morning, street warfare between Macedonians and Albanians in Tetovo on Friday night – could these portentous events have had anything to do with the next day's visit from US Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz?
Über-hawk Wolfowitz touched down briefly in Skopje on the third leg of his Balkan tour. At his first stop (Sarajevo) Wolfowitz oversaw the signing of a treaty guaranteeing that Bosnia will never extradite an American soldier to the International Criminal Court (ICC) for war crimes. At the second stop, Kosovo's Camp Bondsteel, Wolfowitz inspected the troops at this all but forgotten imperial outpost.
Wolfowitz's trip to Macedonia was decidedly low-key, and lasted only a few hours. Officially, he came for the photo op and speech praising the Iraq-bound Macedonian conscripts. However, the fact that he also met in private with former NLA boss Ali Ahmeti, President Boris Trajkovski, and later with Prime Minister Branko Crvenkovski and Defense Minister Vlade Buchkovski seems to indicate that Rumsfeld's right-hand man came to talk business.
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However, it is slightly unclear as to what that business was. Wolfowitz's entourage, which included US Ambassador Laurence Butler and the proverbial men in dark suits and sunglasses talking on mobile phones, were escorted briskly in and out of government buildings all morning, leaving little chance for interrogation. Although Wolfowitz answered two or three mundane questions in a mundane way when meeting with Trajkovski, no real explanation for his visit was given. And the US Embassy on Saturday claimed to have no one available who could speak on the matter.
Saturday's final photo op for Wolfowitz was the Macedonian Army's Ilinden barracks, a sprawling encampment situated on a high wooded bluff overlooking Skopje. Here Wolfowitz gave a short speech to the 39 Iraq-bound Macedonian soldiers. Among them are members of the Wolves (special forces), as well as army medics.
Flanked by officials, Wolfowitz stood opposite the neatly-arrayed Macedonian troops and thanked them for playing their part in the "liberation" of the Iraqi people from "…one of the worst dictators of modern history." He also alluded to the US-imposed Ohrid Agreement when praising the Macedonians for "settling issues by talking instead of by fighting." He then proceeded down the row, cordially shaking hands with each of the conscripts. Much snapping and flashing ensued from the thicket of cameras adjacent.
photo by Cvetin Cilimanov for Antiwar.com
(Excerpt) Read more at antiwar.com ...
I merely explained to you the reason why Serbian troops wouldn't be allowed back into Kosovo, whereupon you countered with your Harlem example, which is specious, given the difference between the motivation and methods of the two forces involved.
So I dunno - what does that say about me?
You may consider the reason the Serbs won't be back in Kosovo any time soon no more than a confusion of hot air, but government by the consent of the governed will be enforced in this case, given the previous government's criminal treatment of it's subject citizens.
Moving on, let's consider the following two statements:
Actually, a big part of the reason why things went so bad in Bosnia and Croatia is that we acted to inflame their ethnic rivalries by prematurely and irresponsibly recognizing their independence.
I believe I said that recognition - both by us and by Western European governments - made matters considerably worse than they otherwise would have been. It certainly didn't help any.
Given your vast knowledge of the subject, you must know the relevant dates of both Croatian and Bosnian recognition, and the approximate starting point of the ethnic slaughter in both countries.
In short, you are either attempting to rewriting history or demonstrate an egregious ignorance of the subject matter - both Vukovar and the cleansing of non-Serb villages in Bosnia predate the recognition of those countries by months. So just how did our and the European's recognition exacerbate the situation? Other than definitively scuttling the Serb attempt to create Greater Serbia and giving a generation of web based disinformation artists grist for their mills, the effects of recognition shall have to be demonstrated to have worsened the situation.
Are you up to it? I doubt it, but what the hell, you may surprise me yet.
you'd do well
What I'd do well to do, Inquest, is to more fully recognize the limitations of those I am conversing with. If you cannot figure out how our actions in Croatia and Bosnia, where we paid mere lip service to our values and ideals, relate to our actions in Macedonia, where we intervened to stop ethnic violence from tearing the country apart, then who am I to attempt to elucidate the matter to you more than once?
Was the kind of fearmongering you describe going on anywhere but on the Albanian side?
Have you seen examples of fearmongering on the Albanian side? I'm curious - please provide examples that match what was being presented on RealityMacedonia.org
Look up Ljuboten and Boskovski - I'll expect to hear your recycling of someone else's rationalization forthwith.
Ljube is just one of those idiots I can count on in a squeeze to prove a point, so I keep him in mind.
Yup, hot air all around. Your prating on about "government by consent of the governed" fully justifies my Harlem example. If "government by consent of the governed" means one thing in Kosovo, it means the exact same thing everywhere else. Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, you're basically arguing for an unlimited right to secession all throughout the world, even in cases where there's a normal, democratically run parent government.
So just how did our and the European's recognition exacerbate the situation? Other than definitively scuttling the Serb attempt to create Greater Serbia and giving a generation of web based disinformation artists grist for their mills, the effects of recognition shall have to be demonstrated to have worsened the situation.
Interesting. It "definitively scuttled" their attempts, huh? Well gee, you'd think the war would have just ended at that point, seeing as how the Serbs would have just known the game was up. Oh wait, I was the one rewriting history...
In any case, we granted recognition to Bosnia and Croatia in April 1992. And the EU recognized Croatia in December '91 (which no doubt encouraged Bosnia to go that route 3 months later). I'll let you be the judge of how bad things were before & after that point. Here, have a memory refresher.
I'm curious - please provide examples that match what was being presented on RealityMacedonia.org
You call that fearmongering? If there were any exaggerations in that story (which I doubt), they were designed to play to an American audience, not a Macedonian one. The latter already knew how disreputable the KLA/NLA/ANA were, even without Osama. Fearmongering, to me, means demonizing an ethnic group (for example, your hot air about Serbia up at the top of the post), not calling to account those who've appointed themselves to act on their behalf. If someone tried to make the case that Louis Farrakhan was aligned with al-Qaeda (which is not too fanciful, given his warm relationship with Middle Eastern despots), would you consider it "fearmongering" against blacks?
Look up Ljuboten and Boskovski - I'll expect to hear your recycling of someone else's rationalization forthwith.
Well, let's see: 1. We have the OSCE refusing to corroborate HRW's account. HRW chalks this up to "intimidation" by the Macedonian government, which of course is ridiculous; the worst that could happen to them is that they'd just be kicked out of the country, which would only make Skopje look bad, not the OSCE. (And even at that, have they kicked the brave, intrepid HRW out of the country? Didn't think so.)
2. We have a whole bunch of sensational interviews with Ljuboten locals (in Skopje!) who claimed to have been severly beaten, but no mention by HRW of wounds on the bodies of these interviewees. Just an oversight, I'm sure. (Couldn't have been fearmongering or anything)
3. We have a guerrilla army in Macedonia that shamelessly hides among civilian populations, so in such a situation, things aren't always going to look neat and clean. If the Macedonian army is going to go into a place looking for terrorists, are the locals going to welcome them in with open arms and turn over the people they're looking for, or are they going to riot and provoke retaliatory measures? HRW doesn't appear to ask themselves these questions, which of course would leave the reader with the impression that Boskoski and his colleagues are just a bunch of lying Slavs. Oh, and the fact that HRW calls them "ultranationalists" doesn't contribute much to their objectivity either.
While it's nice to know I had you in a squeeze, you've hardly proven any points by bringing him up. You might have some credibility if the U.S. government cited abuses by the Macedonian government as justification for intervening in their affairs, but when you look at their statements, it's all "peace process" and "timetables" and "talks" and "ceasefires". As if that somehow justifies our meddlesomeness.
Let's see, Croatia was recognized in 92, and Gospic was in 91.
No.
Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, you do not understand events in the Balkans, much less my position in relation to them.
Can you tell me whether there is an insurrection in Harlem? I'm intrigued by your clinging to that point - did I miss the revolution, or are you merely going overboard with a hypothetical here?
Keep at it, Hoplite. Maybe you can find some interesting fossils in that hole you're digging yourself into.
Found anything down there yet?
There is no insurrection in Harlem, because we don't treat our residents like Milosevic treated his minorities.
That supports my side of the argument, not yours.
Get it?
Still, if you're going to hew to the Nationalist Serbian line, none of this will matter.
And once again, Milosevic and his party are out of the equation. You seem determined to keep going round and round in circles with this, in the apparent hope that no one will notice that you can't give us a coherent reason why the Serbs are unfit to govern their own country.
Pssst - Gospic was in October, and the Serbian ethnic cleansing of Croat Kijevo was in August and both predate recognition.
Yeah, and? It still makes it pretty laughable that you think Gospic supports your position.
It's a coherent reason, and it was given earlier in this thread. If you don't agree with it, fine - deal with the world and your cognitive dissonance as best you can.
Speaking of not understanding things, the fact that Croats and Serbs were killing each other with great abandon prior to Croatia's being recognized, coupled with the cease-fire put in place after recognition, doesn't support your position that recognition made things worse in Croatia - both parties were hell bent upon achieving their aims through force, the Croats turned out to want it more than the Serbs, and something tells me that the outcome of the various Balkan wars, which ended worse for the Serbs than others, chap your hide and are driving this discussion more than anything else.
It's a coherent reason
No, it's not a reason at all for the question I asked, namely, why the Serbs aren't competent to decide themselves what would be the best approach to take. If you don't want to read what I'm saying, then don't lecture me about cognitive dissonance.
Speaking of not understanding things, the fact that Croats and Serbs were killing each other with great abandon prior to Croatia's being recognized, coupled with the cease-fire put in place after recognition, doesn't support your position that recognition made things worse in Croatia
You're honestly going to tell me that things were worse before recognition than after?
something tells me that the outcome of the various Balkan wars, which ended worse for the Serbs than others, chap your hide and are driving this discussion more than anything else.
Typical paranoid raving. Anyone who disagrees with you must be a Serb ultranationalist, which by the looks of things would amount to about 75% of the people on FR. Do you really believe your own idiotic strawmen? Pretty sad if you do.
You're honestly going to tell me that things were worse before recognition than after?
Go ahead - pick a category - economic damage, deaths, refugees, or all war related issues and we'll take it from there. Let's quantify this and put an end to this nonsense.
Anyone who disagrees with you must be a Serb ultranationalist
No, I run into a fair share of simpletons as well.
Research the Croatia recognition question - I'll look forward to going over the data with you. = )
What do you think about the timeframe 1941 to 1991 in regard to the Krajina Serbs? I mean, were the Krajina Serbs ready to countenance the Ustashas in uniform in their midst in 1991? I don't think they were.
But the latest in a string of incoherent non-answers. Don't worry, I'll deal.
Go ahead - pick a category - economic damage, deaths, refugees, or all war related issues and we'll take it from there. Let's quantify this and put an end to this nonsense.
Now Hoplite, I realize that giving direct answers to questions isn't your strong suit, but I thought this one was pretty easy even for you. So why not give it the old college try?
And in any case, I provided you with a timeline earlier which you conveniently ignored.
No, I run into a fair share of simpletons as well.
If you define "simpleton" as someone who can follow simple logic and answer simple questions, I can see why you might feel so alone around here.
Tudmans ZNG.
The Supreme State Council had been founded, while President Tudjman had made the decision on April 9, that the MUP police units become armed ZNG forces in 1991.
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