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Six out of 10 Americans Say Homosexual Relations Should Be Recognized as Legal
GALLUP NEWS SERVICE ^ | May 15, 2003 | Frank Newport

Posted on 05/15/2003 12:16:22 PM PDT by Remedy

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To: pram
Based on the readings and what I've seen of this agenda, your characterization is inaccurate and an insult to millions or folks who were killed by nazis. Why is your use of propaganda any different than theirs? If you have a point to make, make it without watering down the historical perspective that comes along with the word.
121 posted on 05/15/2003 10:56:36 PM PDT by breakem
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To: breakem
If you want to study up on the relationship between Nazi Germany and homosexuality, read "The Pink Swastika" by Scott Lively and Kevin Abrams, http://www.abidingtruth.com/ The website has the whole text available for reading so you don't have to pay a dime. When I use the phrase "homo Nazis" it is not propaganda, it is sedately descriptive. After you've read the book (it's only about 300pp) then post your rebuttal. There's no point in continuing a discussion until you've got some facts under your belt.

PS My husband is from Poland, his father was incarcerated in a Nazi slave camp for 5 years, his grandfather fought in the war, and has anecdotal evidence as well. FYI, around 6,000 homosexuals died in camps - they were not targeted for extermination, mostly they died of malnutrition and disease. The homosexuals incarcerated in camps were mostly "fems" (so-called effeminate homosexuals), who the ultra masculine Nazi homosexuals held in contempt, or they were innocent people who were labelled as homosexuals to get them out of the way (such as political prisoners.)
Read up on some facts before you get in the ring. You are speaking of that which you know nothing.
122 posted on 05/15/2003 11:23:29 PM PDT by First Amendment
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To: Antoninus
Poor form maybe, but a wish to systematically tattoo a group of undesireable people has been suggested before. This was justified at that time because the group was considered filthy by people trying to purify their race.

123 posted on 05/15/2003 11:44:52 PM PDT by ffusco (Maecilius Fuscus, Governor of Longovicium , Manchester, England. 238-244 AD)
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To: pram
Anti-homosexuals or anti-Nazis? Hmm. Decisions, decisions.

Homosexuals in Nazi Germany

Homosexuals in Nazi Germany

124 posted on 05/15/2003 11:45:06 PM PDT by JoshGray
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To: Remedy
They forgot to poll me and everyone I know.
125 posted on 05/15/2003 11:47:41 PM PDT by Delphinium
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To: Remedy
Just the opposite, the "right" to sin is granted by God, and has been from the very beginning. Love is a choice, and if we love God, then we will "choose" to do what is right (though we will all make mistakes due to the fall, or Christ was not needed). Reference the "choice"/"command" God gave to Adam Gen2:17. Adam was told not to do from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, yet God allowed him to make his own "choice" to obey in love, or rebel in sin.

The right to choose sodomy, no matter how revolting to you and I is a inalienable (God given) "choice".


126 posted on 05/16/2003 5:48:27 AM PDT by borntodiefree
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To: ffusco
The Poisoned Stream "Gay" Influence in Human History. Volume One. Germany 1890-1945. View as HTML

Igra's primary value to us today is that he was an eyewitness to the changes that occurred in Germany; an eyewitness with a uniquely prophetic sense of the danger of "gay" influence in society. I consider it a great privilege to be able to review his work for the modern reader.
Igra's Thesis: Homosexuality Was at the Root of Nazi Evil

"I had finished the writing of [Germany's National Vice]," writes Samuel Igra, "when my attention was called to a British White Paper, 'Concerning the treatment of German Nationals (including the Jews) in Germany,' in which the following statement is made: 'The explanation for this outbreak of sadistic cruelty may be that sexual perversion, and, in particular, homosexuality, are very prevalent in Germany. It seems to me that mass sexual perversion may offer an explanation of this otherwise inexplicable outbreak.' [Page 20. His Majesty's Stationary Office, 1939].
"The author of that statement is Mr. R. T. Smallbones, who was British Consul-General at Frankfort-on-Main from 1932 until the outbreak of the war in 1939. Previous to 1932 he had been stationed in other German cities. His opinion therefore rests on firsthand experience of the German people for a long period of years. I am convinced that his explanation is the correct one. For, as a matter of fact, the widespread existence of sexual perversion in Germany, not only at the time the Hitler movement rose to power but also under the Kaiser's regime, is notorious... And authorities on criminal sociology are agreed that there is a causal connection between mass sexual perversion and the kind of mass atrocities committed by the Germans (ibid:7).

The Roehm Purge, then, was not a "moral cleansing" of the Nazi ranks, but a re-alignment of power behind the German government which was primarily forced upon Hitler by powerful political elements whose support he needed to maintain control. Igra goes on to point out that not only did the majority of the SA homosexuals survive the purge, but that the massacre was largely implemented by homosexuals.

There is no question that homosexuality figures prominently in the history of the Holocaust. As we have noted, the ideas for disposing of the Jews originated with Lanz von Leibenfels. The first years of terrorism against the Jews were carried out by the homosexuals of the SA. The first concentration camp, as well as the system for training its brutal guards, was the work of Ernst Roehm. The first pogrom, Kristallnacht, was orchestrated in 1938 by the homosexual Reinhard Heydrich. And it was the transvestite Goering who started the "evolution of the Final Solution...[with an] order to Heydrich (Jan. 24, 1939) concerning the solution of the Jewish question by 'emigration' and 'evacuation'" (Robinson:25).

Homosexuality and the Nazi PartyOne of the keys to understanding both the rise of Nazism and the later persecution of some homosexuals by the Nazis is found in this early history of the German "gay rights" movement. For it was the CS which created and shaped what would become the Nazi persona, and it was the loathing which these "Butches" held for effeminate homosexuals ("Femmes") which led to the internment of some of the latter in slave labor camps in the Third Reich.

More significantly, many of the guards and administrators responsible for the infamous concentration camp atrocities were homosexuals themselves, which negates the proposition that homosexuals in general were being persecuted and interned.

The enduring "Butch/Femme" conflict among German homosexuals clearly had a substantial bearing on the treatment of pink-triangle prisoners.

...While the neo-pagans were busy attacking from without, liberal theologians undermined Biblical authority from within the Christian church. The school of so-called "higher criticism," which began in Germany in the late 1800s, portrayed the miracles of God as myths; by implication making true believers (Jew and Christian alike) into fools. And since the Bible was no longer accepted as God's divine and inerrant guide, it could be ignored or reinterpreted. By the time the Nazis came to power, "Bible-believing" Christians, (the Confessing Church) were a small minority. As Grunberger asserts, Nazism itself was a "pseudo-religion" (ibid.:79) that competed, in a sense, with Christianity and Judaism.

From the early years, leading Nazis openly attacked Christianity. Joseph Goebbels declared that "Christianity has infused our erotic attitudes with dishonesty" (Taylor:20). It is in this campaign against Judeo- Christian morality that we find the reason for the German people's acceptance of Nazism's most extreme atrocities. Their religious foundations had been systematically eroded over a period of decades by powerful social forces. By the time the Nazis came to power, German culture was spiritually bankrupt. Too often, historians have largely ignored the spiritual element of Nazi history; but if we look closely at Hitler's campaign of extermination of the Jews, it becomes clear that his ostensive racial motive obscures a deeper and more primal hatred of the Jews as the "People of God."

The probable reason for Hitler's attack on Christianity was his perception that it alone had the moral authority to stop the Nazi movement. But Christians stumbled before the flood of evil. As Poliakov notes, "[W]hen moral barriers collapsed under the impact of Nazi preaching...the same anti-Semitic movement that led to the slaughter of the Jews gave scope and license to an obscene revolt against God and the moral law. An open and implacable war was declared on the Christian tradition...[which unleashed] a frenzied and unavowed hatred of Christ and the Ten Commandments" (Poliakov:300).

"The Nazi Master Plan: The Persecution Of The Christian Churches"

The Donovan Nuremberg Trials collection

Gay Nazis: the Role of Homosexuality in Nazism & Hitler's Rise to ... Thus butch hypermasculinity, visibility for homosexuals, and organization were the three necessary ingredients in the mix which allowed the SA leaders to make their unique and essential contribution to the rise of Nazism. Another important consideration is that visibility is enabled when homosexuality assumes a political voice. In this way, the politicization of homosexuality, which supported gays in the process of socially identifying themselves as such, was a necessary condition for Hitler's success.

Was Hitler's Homosexuality Nazism's Best-Kept Secret?

Sadomasochism That sadomasochism and homoeroticism often occur together with Nazism in the Holocaust film is a fact that has long been recognized and is frequently observed. Ilan Avisar, in Screening the Holocaust, traces what he calls the connection of Nazism and "sexual deviance" to Rossellini's Open City.[1] Gerd Gemünden suggests that in 1942, "the association of male homosexuality with sadism and perversion [as in the effeminate portrayal of Heydrich in Hangmen Also Die] ... anticipates postwar films such as The Damned (Visconti 1969) and Night Porter (Cavani 1974)."[2]

[1] Ilan Avisar, Screening the Holocaust: Cinema's Images of the Unimaginable (Bloomington, IN: Indiana University Press, 1988), pp. 134-48

[2] Gerd Gemünden, "Brecht in Hollywood: Hangmen Also Die and the Anti-Nazi Film," TDR 43 (4) (Winter 1999): 65-7; The earliest book in English to conflate Nazism with sexual perversion was Samuel Igra's Germany's National Vice (London: Quality Press, Ltd., 1945).

Hermeneutical Issues In The Use Of The Bible To Justify The ... sin of the two groups of men in Sodom and Gibeah is, in both instances, the desire to engage in homosexual rape. This practice occurred in the Ancient Middle East when armies were defeated, and it occurs today in certain all-male settings, such as prisons.[11] The conclusion, more clearly for Sodom than for Gibeah[12], is that the goal of homosexual rape is the male inhabitants' desire to express their dominance over the strangers.

Violence and Homosexuality

The Sexual Rage Behind Islamic Terror ALL SERIAL KILLERS, almost without exception, are severely sexually abused as children.

In this culture, males sexually penetrating males becomes a manifestation of male power, conferring a status of hyper-masculinity. An unmarried man who has sex with boys is simply doing what men do. As the scholar Bruce Dunne has demonstrated, sex in Islamic societies is not about mutuality between partners, but about the adult male's achievement of pleasure through violent domination.

...It is also the silence that forces victimized Arab boys into invisibility. Even though the society does not see their sexual exploitation as being humiliating, the psychological and emotional scars that result from their subordination, powerlessness and humiliation is a given. Traumatized by the violation of their dignity and manliness, they spend the rest of their lives trying to get it back.

Violating the masculinity of the enemy necessitates the dishing out of severe violence against him. In the recent terrorist strikes, therefore, violence against Americans served as a much-needed release of the terrorists' bottled-up sexual rage. Moreover, it served as a desperate and pathological testament of the re-masculinization of their emasculated selves.

Conclusion to the Psychological Effects of Combat - Dave Grossman, Author It is often said that "All's fair in love and war," and this expression provides a valuable insight into the human psyche, since these twin, taboo fields of sexuality and aggression represent the two realms in which most individuals will consistently deceive both themselves and others.

In the field of developmental psychology, a mature adult is sometimes defined as someone who has attained a degree of insight and self-control in the two areas of sexuality and aggression. This is also a useful definition of maturity in civilizations.

127 posted on 05/16/2003 5:49:54 AM PDT by Remedy
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To: Remedy
This just shows the illusion that the American people are under through the liberal media and influance
128 posted on 05/16/2003 5:53:24 AM PDT by conservative golfer dude
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To: borntodiefree

Just the opposite, the "right" to sin MURDER is granted by God, and has been from the very beginning. Love is a choice, and if we love God, then we will "choose" to do what is right (though we will all make mistakes due to the fall, or Christ was not needed). Reference the "choice"/"command" God gave to Adam Gen2:17. Adam was told not to do from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, yet God allowed him to make his own "choice" to obey in love, or rebel in sin.

The right to choose sodomy MURDER, no matter how revolting to you and I is a inalienable (God given) "choice".

I see that you advocate murder, theft, rape…whatever else suits you.

READ LINKS IN POST#1 to clear your CONFUSION.

129 posted on 05/16/2003 5:54:22 AM PDT by Remedy
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To: Remedy
Me thinks this "poll" didn't get the question straight...pun intended.

It should read: "Six 'in' their 'fellow' 10 Americans say...etc, etc.."

Please pass the goat rope, and throw it overboard.

Mustang sends from "Malpaso News"
130 posted on 05/16/2003 6:05:27 AM PDT by Mustang (Evil Thrives When Good People Do Nothing!)
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To: Remedy
No, if you read my other posts, you will see that I support the criminalization of "crimes". For a crime you MUST have an unwilling victom and a perpitrator. In the case of Sodomy, you only have to perps and no unwilling victom actually just the opposite two knowing victoms. There is no crime against an unwilling individual so there is no crime...

Just like scripture and law read it ALL in context...
131 posted on 05/16/2003 8:30:19 AM PDT by borntodiefree
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To: borntodiefree
The right to choose sodomy, no matter how revolting to you and I is a inalienable (God given) "choice".

Using this "logic", there should be no law against any chosen behavior up to and including murder, rape or torture, since these are all chosen behaviors. It is true that God gives us freedom to serve Him or not to serve Him. But this does not mean that the governments created by people should have no laws against any behavior!

If your argument is logical, all laws should be outlawed.

132 posted on 05/16/2003 9:31:09 AM PDT by First Amendment
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To: pram
Sorry. I do go on about those butt bangers....
133 posted on 05/16/2003 10:23:09 AM PDT by caisson71
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Comment #134 Removed by Moderator

To: Motherbear
'Instead, it's about calling perverted sex between two people of the same sex "marriage",...'

Um, no. Sex and marriage aren't the same thing, even among heterosexuals. A 15-year monogamous relationship between Joe and Jane is approved of by society, a roll in the hay between Fred and Sally isn't.

Anyway, I'm not sure marriage is such a great thing, given the mess you heterosexuals have made of it in this country. What's the divorce rate nowadays? http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

"it's about homosexual agendas in the public schools..."
My personal "homosexual agenda" for today is to finish grading assignment 5 for Intro to Computers, write the final exam for the JavaScript course, help set up a Linux system, and take a moment to wonder why all the good-looking guys are either straight or taken. Singlehandedly destroying society will just have to wait until next Saturday.
135 posted on 05/16/2003 11:10:14 AM PDT by jde1953
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Comment #136 Removed by Moderator

To: carolina_rn7
Six out of ten have not been polled, or they are the refuse of our culture selected on purpose, or they have been in bondage so long that they could not care. It is most probably a lie that six out of ten support legalization of a debasing "lifestyle". Homosexuality is a SIN, it is not acceptable and will not and cannot be legalized, murder is not legalized - homosexuality kills its practitioners in their spirit soul and body. Cannot legalize rape, cannot legalize men with men. Nor women with women. Nor people with animals.
137 posted on 05/16/2003 11:15:19 AM PDT by Hila
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To: pram
Wrong, all people have rights to life, liberty, and the "pursuit" of happiness. Murder, rape, theft, fraud, and other such crimes have victoms whose above fundamental rights have been violated. That is the true definition of a "crime" under natural/common law.

I am not supporting this abhorant act, I'm saying that I and therefore nor does my proxy government have the right to stop/criminalize it.
138 posted on 05/16/2003 1:11:02 PM PDT by borntodiefree
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To: ethical
For God's sake, do you really think that if homosexual relationships are recognized as legal that all of mankind will switch over and become gay, hence bringing about the end of the world due to lack of procreation?
139 posted on 05/16/2003 1:16:56 PM PDT by ShadowDancer
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To: ShadowDancer
The original point, which was not my own but I agreed with it, had to do with the absurd notion that anyone would give any kind of credibility at all to a sexual relationship that is so biologically wrong that if everyone engaged in it it would mean the end of the human race. It would be akin to giving credibility to a group of people who had a strong desire to eat by shoving food into their ears instead of their mouths even though they would end up starving to death.
140 posted on 05/16/2003 1:28:09 PM PDT by ethical
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