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Artificial Life Experiments Show How Complex Functions Can Evolve
NSF ^ | May 8, 2003 | Staff

Posted on 05/08/2003 10:11:06 AM PDT by Nebullis

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To: gore3000
Evolution teaches ignorant people ...

that they than can be -- do -- believe ---

opposite things at the same time (( abscence of reality // sincereity )) !
1,381 posted on 05/14/2003 7:30:44 PM PDT by f.Christian (( the VERY sick mind - won't recognize facts -- REALITY -- probability anymore ! ))
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To: Doctor Stochastic
Your beliefs are quite relevant when you make claims that are at variance with generally accepted scientific practice.

The scientific facts about the Cambrian are as I stated them to be. Not a single evolutionist has been able to come up with a legitimate evolutionary explanation that fits the facts. The Cambrian disproves gradual evolution completely. My beliefs (and yours) are irrelevant as to the facts in this matter or any other scientific matter. The facts speak for themselves. What you are trying to do is what the evolutionists here try to do all the time - to change the subject from the facts in the discussion to the person showing up facts against evolution. All you and your friends are doing is showing that my statement is correct - evolution is bunk and the only proof it can provide is: lies, doubletalk and insults.

1,382 posted on 05/14/2003 7:49:31 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: Ten Megaton Solution
The saying 'the pen is mightier than the sword' ilustrates the complete difference between man and beasts.-me-

Yes, men build pens to keep animals in for later consumption, and use swords on each other.

Well, at least you try to evade the point in a funny way. However, you know quite well what the point is - that man is much more than a beast. He strives for more than to just satisfy his material needs. He seeks to build, to create, to leave a legacy, to make the world better not just for himself but also for others and many other things which beasts do not even dream of. Man is far and away different from the beasts not in degree, but in kind.

1,383 posted on 05/14/2003 7:55:00 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: Ten Megaton Solution
Art is a "non-material activity", is it? Guess you never considered the reason why artists do their thing.

1) To sell. (ie make money, to buy food, shelter, clothing, time share condos, girlfriends, etc)

2) Social recognition (which is another pathway to food, shelter, girlfriend's pants, etc)

The "artist" that creates, but doesn't show it to anyone, has a mental disorder not conducive to survival.

Well, all the above is disproven by the cave paintings in Northern Spain and Southern France. Who do you sell a cave painting to? The caves were so hidden that it took thousands of years to find them, so who was he showing up for? No one.

Further, many people paint and do artistic things for the pleasure of it. Some women knit, sew, some men do things from wood and other materials. They do it for the pleasure it gives them, not for profit and not to satisfy any material need. Mankind is the only creature that does this.

1,384 posted on 05/14/2003 7:59:54 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: donh
This does not constitute a claim that I have read the book. No one has read the book--that would be like reading Numbers or the phone book. Like everyone else, except possibly Wolfram, I have scanned it for the meat, and ignored most of the examples and details of implementation.

Oh, I see, you call me ignorant for not having read it, yet you yourself have not read it. You claim it proves that non-living matter can create a turing machine but you cannot back it up. Thanks for showing all of us your mode of discussion is just one bluff after another and that your words should not be taken seriously.

1,385 posted on 05/14/2003 8:02:50 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: donh
Nobody writ in concrete that fitness test failures are necessary for evolution to take place.

Really? Evolution does not say that natural selection is the agency by which the good and the bad changes in organisms are sifted???????????

The above is the reason why the evolutionists will never state exactly what the theory of evolution is and how it works. As soon as a refutation is given for what it obviously says and for what evolutionists have been saying for 150 years, they say that evolution is not about that. They are thus always saying what evolution is not, but never what evolution is since just about every single statement in it has been totally disproven.

1,386 posted on 05/14/2003 8:07:27 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: Ichneumon
Yes, they intelligently designed an experiment that tested how complexity can and does arise *without* the intervention of intelligent design.

Nonsense. They concocted a program that would do what they wanted to do. Anyone can do that. A program can only be called a valid simulation if it behaves in the same way that the thing being simulated does AND takes into consideration all the relevant factors of the situation.

This program fails as a simulation on two counts:

1. It is totally impossible to simulate all the factors involved in living things and their environment. The program must therefore had to have been selective in what it chose to simulate. Therefore it is not a simulation of real life.

2. As I already pointed out, by evolutionist's own admission:

It's a truism of entomology (been demonstrated in sealed mason jars thousands of times) that when two nearly identical species occupy nearly the same contained biological nitche, one or the other will eventually prevail entirely, no matter how tiny its differential advantage.
1,012 posted on 05/09/2003 9:59 PM PDT by donh ).


that fitness cost is very important to evolution. The program did not exact a fitness cost for non-working functions. This makes the program total bunk.

Furthermore, as I have said, with so many experiments going on all the time, so much money poured into biology not just by the US Government, but by private foundations, medical firms, drug firms, hospitals in the US and throughout the world - why is there a need for a program to prove that evolution is science? If it were science the proof would be coming out on a daily basis from all the scientific research going on.

1,387 posted on 05/14/2003 8:22:02 PM PDT by gore3000
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To: gore3000
My beliefs are irrelevant to the discussion.

Finally, something we can both agree on wholeheartedly.

1,388 posted on 05/14/2003 8:27:26 PM PDT by Ichneumon
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To: gore3000
I have read the book. Wolfram does show that one can get a universal Turing machine in the way described. (The politics behind this theorem are amusing.)
1,389 posted on 05/14/2003 8:40:43 PM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch is der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: Ichneumon
he must be making his way through all the primary colors or something.

OK, we'll call this the primary color skipping placemarker.

Can you believe this G3K, the {place your antievolutionist, fundamentalist without a clue, favorite term here} from hell.
1,390 posted on 05/14/2003 8:41:00 PM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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To: gore3000
Oh, I see, you call me ignorant for not having read it,

Where did I call you ignorant for not having read it?

If you were ignorant, at least there'd be an anemic excuse for your creative approach to generating data.

yet you yourself have not read it. You claim it proves that non-living matter can create a turing machine but you cannot back it up.

I never read the bible. That doesn't mean there's a law against me quoting from it, now does it? I never finished Euclid. Does that mean I can't provide a geometric proof out of Euclid's geometry? As usual, you are making up laws and data as you go along.

Thanks for showing all of us your mode of discussion is just one bluff after another and that your words should not be taken seriously.

Thanks for showing us once again what an opportunistic, self-aggradizing lightweight dissembler you are.

1,391 posted on 05/14/2003 10:08:09 PM PDT by donh (u)
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To: gore3000
Really? Evolution does not say that natural selection is the agency by which the good and the bad changes in organisms are sifted???????????

The theory of evolution is about prokariotes or better, as you know. The theory of evolution is mute about what might have happened before we got to prokariotes. As you know, on those rare occasions when you aren't deliberately misrepresenting what claims science makes.

The above is the reason why the evolutionists will never state exactly what the theory of evolution is and how it works. As soon as a refutation is given for what it obviously says and for what evolutionists have been saying for 150 years, they say that evolution is not about that. They are thus always saying what evolution is not, but never what evolution is since just about every single statement in it has been totally disproven.

As usual, you do not give the appearance of person with the slightest notion of what a proof is. And as usual, every claim you've made here is totally irrelevant, to anyone that's been to a natural history museum in the last 20 years or so, with his brights turned on. It is not science's job to jump through any hoops any lame idiot with a bee in his bonnet raises for it to jump through. The basic laws of physics aren't the same as they were 100 years ago, and I don't see you complaining about that. Science changes as we learn more. This is not, contrary to your nonsensical skreed, a jailable offense.

1,392 posted on 05/14/2003 10:19:37 PM PDT by donh (u)
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To: Nakatu X
AndrewC, I should not have done this, but my desire to defend those in my own profession is so great that I went and answered your challenge anyway (I pulled it off using my university library privileges).
The 9-transistor cubic function generator, results and all, are all right here:

Thanks for your effort. Here is your good news. The paper has a genetically programmed virtual circuit that has an simulated performance edge over another virtual circuit in an average consisting of 4 fitness cases.
The bad news is that:

  1. It is all simulated
  2. The evolved circuit in the paper has 18 transistors not 17 as in the SciAm article(it is not the same circuit)
  3. The patented circuit has 5 transistors and 4 diodes not 9 transistors(pointed out previously)
  4. The evolved circuit has a larger maximum error
  5. There is no evidence that the evolved circuit will operate suitably even in simulation at 1Ghz. This is especially suspected since the paper states -- We used the commercially common 2N3904 (npn) and 2N3906 (pnp) transistor modlels unless the patent document called for a different model. This is from the specs for 2N3904 The useful dynamic range extends to 100 mA as a switch and to 100 MHz as an amplifier.. The 2N3906 has similar characteristics.
Also previously noted --> I suspect that the performance edge is a paper product. Something that the emulating program has produced. Why do I surmise that? Because in evolving the circuit I doubt that each individual circuit was constructed in order to measure its performance of the cubic function. That would be impractical.

So what is to be gathered from this? Well, there is evidence that a genetically developed simulated circuit can, on paper, outperform a human designed simulated circuit in some specific data points, but the patented circuit still remains unchallenged when it comes to a non-simulated circuit operating in the frequency ranges for which it was designed. More to the point, the following assertions still hang.

In this case, it made a cubic function generator circuit which outperforms the best that all electronic engineers were capable of producing in all the history of electronics.

The circuit at the top was patented in 2000, and is the current state of the art. The circuit at the bottom was produced by pure unaided evolution, and outperforms the human version.

1,393 posted on 05/14/2003 10:21:15 PM PDT by AndrewC
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To: gore3000
The basic laws of physics aren't the same as they were 100 years ago, and I don't see you complaining about that. Science changes as we learn more.

uri geller now!

1,394 posted on 05/14/2003 10:23:43 PM PDT by f.Christian (( the VERY sick mind - won't recognize facts -- REALITY -- probability anymore ! ))
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To: f.Christian
uri geller now!

So...(I should know better than to ask) you think the basic laws of physics haven't changed in the last 100 years?

1,395 posted on 05/14/2003 10:27:48 PM PDT by donh (u)
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To: donh
Truce (( peace -- consideration -- respect )) ...

on another thread this was debated rather extensively ---

science (( no change )) vs the study of science (( change )) !
1,396 posted on 05/14/2003 10:30:59 PM PDT by f.Christian (( the VERY sick mind - won't recognize facts -- REALITY -- probability anymore ! ))
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To: AndrewC
Thanks for your effort. Here is your good news. The paper has a genetically programmed virtual circuit that has an simulated performance edge over another virtual circuit in an average consisting of 4 fitness cases.

Which, of course, makes the case under discussion, whether or not your deponent's representation of it was overblown.

1,397 posted on 05/14/2003 10:31:16 PM PDT by donh (u)
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To: f.Christian
science (( no change )) vs the study of science (( change )) !

That's a silly quibble. The universe does whatever it damn well pleases, and hasn't the slightest demonstrated notion of what a law is to constrain it. Insofar as what is demonstrable, natural laws are human inventions to help us think more effectively about nature. The claim that they are objectively existing things in and of themselves, is unproven and probably unprovable--as is likewise the claim that there is such a thing as "science" which exists independently of "the study of science".

1,398 posted on 05/14/2003 10:36:46 PM PDT by donh (u)
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To: gore3000
The scientific facts about the Cambrian are as I stated them to be. Not a single evolutionist has been able to come up with a legitimate evolutionary explanation that fits the facts.

Do tell.

1,399 posted on 05/14/2003 10:40:31 PM PDT by donh (u)
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To: donh
Don't feed the troll.. It makes him stronger, kinda like popeye and spinach.
1,400 posted on 05/14/2003 10:41:44 PM PDT by Aric2000 (Are you on Grampa Dave's team? I am!! $5 a month is all it takes, come join!!!)
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