Allies Risk 3000 Casualties in Baghdad - Ex-General

Reuters ^ | 3-24-03

[oursacredhonor]

LONDON (Reuters) - The U.S.-led force in Iraq risks as many as 3,000 casualties in the battle for Baghdad and Washington has underestimated the number of troops needed, a top former commander from the 1991 Gulf War said on Monday.

Retired U.S. Army General Barry McCaffrey, commander of the 24th Infantry Division 12 years ago, said the U.S.-led force faced "a very dicey two to three day battle" as it pushes north toward the Iraqi capital.

"We ought to be able to do it (take Baghdad)," he told the Newsnight Program on Britain's BBC Television late on Monday.

"In the process if they (the Iraqis) actually fight, and that's one of the assumptions, clearly it's going to be brutal, dangerous work and we could take, bluntly, a couple to 3,000 casualties," said McCaffrey who became one of the most senior ranking members of the U.S. military following the 1991 war.

"So if they (the Americans and British) are unwilling to face up to that, we may have a difficult time of it taking down Baghdad and Tikrit up to the north west."

McCaffrey said Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had misjudged the nature of the conflict. Asked if Rumsfeld made a mistake by not sending more troops to start the offensive, McCaffrey replied: "Yes, sure. I think everybody told him that."

"I think he thought these were U.S. generals with their feet planted in World War II that didn't understand the new way of warfare," he added.

U.S. forces have advanced more than 200 miles into Iraqi territory since the start of the war and are beginning to confront an elite division of the Republican Guards deployed to defend the capital.

"So it ought to be a very dicey two to three day battle out there." McCaffrey said of the confrontation with the Republican Guards.

He said his personal view was that the invading troops would "take them (the Iraqis) apart."

"But we've never done something like this with this modest a force at such a distance from its bases," he warned.

McCaffrey, a former Commander in Chief of the U.S. Armed Forces in Latin America, served overseas for 13 years and took part in four combat tours.

He twice received the Distinguished Service Cross, the second highest medal for valor in the United States.

[newzhawk]

Yes he is a General that Clinton used- however a highly decorated one . Afterall , it was a Clinton aide that declared she "didn't speak to military" when Gen McCaffrey greeted her - can you imagine his disgust? And yet he stayed and served - However- as head of the War on Drugs- he said we couldn't win it before he even started so he might just be a pessimist by nature - not a soothsayer!

[jwalsh07]

McCafferey is a smart guy and a good soldier. Don't let the drug czar thing blind you.

He commanded a 7th Cavcompany in Vietnam and he drove the 24thID right up the Republican Guards ass from Bazra and killed the crap out of them. Shwarzkopf should of let him keep going to Baghdad.

His opinion is that we will win but to win the battle of Baghdad it will cost 3000 casualties. That doesn't include door to door in Baghdad. I believe he's got it right.

[diamond6]

The General is one more doomsayer that the networks hire as analysts. I don't believe these casualty figures, which are just for the road to Baghdad (before house to house), will be anywhere near his prediction.

I say we send another round of leaflets. We tell the Republican Guard, all 30-36,000 that are 30 miles from Baghdad, that this is their LAST CHANCE. If they do not capitulate, they will face utter annihilation.

We should then carpet bag B-1 bomb the entire Republican Guard, while they're in the desert. We need to exterminate them like a ant's nest that is in our house. And if they scurry back to Baghdad we need to keep bombing every one of them, until the whole nest is dead. If we allow any of them to live, we will end up having to fight them in door to door fighting at Baghdad.

If we take this tactic, we risk the hatred of everyone against us, but it will have the same type of effect as the nuclear bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Those left in Baghdad will think twice about continuing to confront us. Many more will surrender.

Then I think we should continue surgical strikes and cut off Baghdad from the rest of the country. Keep a noose around their neck and close in litttle by little until they choke or give up. Time is on our side in this kind of waiting game. If that fails, we will at least have weakened them considerably, and then we go in.

I'm sorry to have to use such stark terms, but I think we are to the point of no return in this war. Today, our Apaches turned back, due to heavy artillery fire and were unable to make any significant gains. We must do what must be done, for the greater good of all.

[Anticommie]

just nuke 'em.

I hope if they go chemical we'll nuke 'em.

[CatOwner]

"I say we send another round of leaflets. We tell the Republican Guard, all 30-36,000 that are 30 miles from Baghdad, that this is their LAST CHANCE. If they do not capitulate, they will face utter annihilation.

We should then carpet bag B-1 bomb the entire Republican Guard, while they're in the desert..."

I'll go you one better. Screw the leaflets and go straight to the bombing. There are too many of them to be POWs and anyway they will not give up, at least not in large numbers.

[Scott from the Left Coast]

We should then carpet bag B-1 bomb the entire Republican Guard

Bomb them with these?

[blam]

"McCafferey is a smart guy and a good soldier. Don't let the drug czar thing blind you."

"He commanded a 7th Cavcompany in Vietnam and he drove the 24thID right up the Republican Guards ass from Bazra and killed the crap out of them. Shwarzkopf should of let him keep going to Baghdad."

Thanks, I agree. He was a butt kicker in GW1.

"Shwarzkopf should of let him keep going to Baghdad."

They almost couldn't stop him. I worried that he would be court-martialed for the after the cease fire activity.

[jwalsh07]

The Apaches were not driven back. They were probing the enemy and ran into a hornets nest. Helicopters don't take ground and hold it.

Now we have the Medina Division mapped out and as we speak I suspect the B-52's, the A10's and the Air Force sharpshooters are kicking the crap out of them.

[Diddley]

. . . wolfowitz, perle, kistol are the chicken hawks . . .

I’m fairly new here. How do you define “chicken hawk”?

[diamond6]

You really are from the left coast, aren't you? San Francisco?

[BoomerBob]

There is a lot of speculation by former generals such as McCaffrey about the state of the war and our battle plan but before we fret too much about the opinions of GW I commentators I'd like to make a few observations:

1) If memory serves, McCaffrey's superiors in the first Gulf War were Cheney and Powell who I note are actively involved in this campaign. Tommy Franks and other members of the command and control are also Gulf War vets. Their thoughts and opinions carry more weight at this point than many of the commentators who have been retired for several years.

2) Some have commented on Rummy's inexperience. I seem to remember Rummy running a pretty successful war campaign in Afghanistan last year. I also remember those critics who were talking about a stalled war effort and rising casualties when in fact the Taliban fell shortly following their criticism.

3) Yes, Rummy initially favored a smaller invasion force but that does not indicate his first battle plan would have followed the same strategy as the one now.

4) You are vastly underestimating the intellingence of the Arab world. The arabs supporting Saddam and radical Islam don't care if we carpet bomb or drop daisies, they will hate America regardless. I'm less worried about how we are welcomed in the middle of the conflict as I am concerning how we are welcomed once Saddam's regime is removed.

5) Please be careful not to ascribe the opinions of the media to the Administration. All the comments I have seen from the Administration follow a pattern of bracing Americans for a difficult and protracted war.

Let's see where things stand in the next few days before we assess the effectiveness of the war strategy.

BB

[diamond6]

Sounds good. Just the way I'd play it.

[Illbay]

I am the Infantry--Queen of Battle!

For two centuries I have kept our Nation safe,
Purchasing freedom with my blood.
To tyrants, I am the day of reckoning;
to the oppressed, the hope for the future.
Where the fighting is thick, there am I…
I am the Infantry! FOLLOW ME!

I was there from the beginning,
meeting the enemy face to face, will to will.
My bleeding feet stained the snow at Valley Forge;
my frozen hands pulled Washington across the Delaware.
At Yorktown, the sunlight glinted from the sword and I, begrimed…
Saw a Nation born.
Hardship…And glory I have known.
At New Orleans, I fought beyond the hostile hour,
showed the fury of my long rifle…and came of age.
I am the Infantry! FOLLOW ME!

Westward I pushed with wagon trains…
moved an empire across the plains…
extended freedom's borders and tamed the wild frontier.
I am the Infantry! FOLLOW ME!

I was with Scott at Vera Cruz…
hunted the guerilla in the mountain passes…
and scaled the high plateau.
The fighting was done when I ended my march many miles
from the old Alamo.
From Bull Run to Appomattox, I fought and bled.
Both Blue and Gray were my colors then.
Two masters I served and united them strong…
proved that this nation could right a wrong…
and long endure.
I am the Infantry! FOLLOW ME!

I led the charge up San Juan Hill…
scaled the walls of old Tientsin…
and stalked the Moro in the steaming jungle still…
always the vanguard, I am the Infantry!

At Chateau-Thierry, first over the top,
then I stood like a rock on the Marne.
It was I who cracked the Hindenburg Line…
in the Argonne, I broke the Kaiser's spine…
and didn't come back 'till it was "over, over there."
I am the Infantry! FOLLOW ME!

A generation older at Bataan, I briefly bowed,
but then I vowed to return.
Assaulted the African shore…
learned my lesson the hard way in the desert sands…
pressed my buttons into the beach at Anzio…
and bounced into Rome with determination and resolve.
I am the Infantry!

The English channel, stout beach defenses
and the hedgerows could not hold me…
I broke out at St. Lo, unbent the Bulge…
vaulted the Rhine…and swarmed the Heartland.
Hitler's dream and the Third Reich were dead.

In the Pacific, from island to island…
hit the beaches and chopped through swamp and jungle…
I set the Rising Sun.
I am the Infantry!

In Korea, I gathered my strength around Pusan…
swept across the frozen Han…
outflanked the Reds at Inchon…
and marched to the Yalu.
FOLLOW ME!

In Vietnam, while others turned aside, I fought the longest fight,
from the Central Highlands to the South China Sea
I patrolled the jungle, the paddies and the sky
in the bitter test that belongs to the Infantry.
FOLLOW ME!

Around the world, I stand…ever forward.
Over Lebanon's sands, my rifle steady aimed…
and calm returned.
At Berlin's gates, I scorned the Wall of Shame.
I spanned the Caribbean in freedom's cause,
answered humanity's call.
I trod the streets of Santo Domingo to protect the innocent.
In Grenada, I jumped at Salinas, and proclaimed freedom for all.
My arms set a Panamanian dictator to flight
and once more raised democracy's flag.
In the Persian Gulf, I drew the line in the desert,
called the tyrant's bluff
and restored right and freedom in 100 hours.
Duty called, I answered.
I am the Infantry! FOLLOW ME!

My bayonet…on the wings of power…
keeps the peace worldwide.
And despots, falsely garbed in freedom's mantle,
falter…hide.
My ally in the paddies and the forest…
I teach, I aid, I lead. FOLLOW ME!

Where brave men fight…there fight I.
In freedom's cause…I live, I die.
From Concord Bridge to Heartbreak Ridge,
from the Arctic to the Mekong, to the Caribbean…
the Queen of Battle!

Always ready…then, now, and forever.

I am the Infantry! FOLLOW ME!

[Fury]

Read Fred Frank's and TomClancy's book, Into The Storm. Franks thought highly of McCaffery. BTY, I thought Schwartzcofts critizisms of Fred Franks were unwarranted too

Good book and finished it up last year. Am working on "Every Man A Tiger" by Clancy and Chuck Horner.

I guess I am weary of McCaffery, as he is a bit political. They did have some stand-up Army general on CNN in the afternoon that was straight and to the point.

I agree on Schwarzkopf. It wonder if they ever patched things up after the fact. You can't argue with the results that either produced in Desert Storm. And I respect Franks. Anyone who agrees to have his lower leg sawed off, so he can stay in the US Military, is one heck of a special person.

[jwalsh07]

ChickenHawk is a term of art used by the anti war left and right to describe pro war "neo cons" who have never served in the armed forces.

The antithesis would be the chickenshits who likewise never served but insist on using the term chickenhawk.

[diamond6]

I agree with most of what you have to say. However, even what happens in the next few days, may not tell us everything about this war. There are ebbs and flows to every war. We need to be prepared for the bad, as well as the good. The only consolation is that we will inevitably be victorious, because we are working for the greater good.

[blam]

Army Releases Records Of Gulf War Probe (Barry McCaffery)

[Illbay]

The thing about it is, we have left a lot of dead on battlefields where we didn't have an urgent danger to our Republic involved in that fight.

This is different. I think we all agree that Saddam Hussein represents a DIRECT THREAT to us, and the consensus on FR at least is that he should have been taken out twelve years ago.

This is unfinished business, and if it costs some of the best blood of the rising generation to accomplish, isn't that what our military is for?

Sorry if this offends, but there was a time when such sentiments would have gone without saying.

[TigerDSL]

One big suprise could be II MEF (Marines) coming in through Jordan. According to Global Security, II MEF is now believed to be in Jordan. They can close in on Baghdad from the West, with the 101st A/B encircling Baghdad and attacking from the north of Baghdad.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_orbat.htm

[diamond6]

I never heard this story about Franks. Tell me more.