Hail of Gunfire and Grenades Forces Apaches to Pull Back

nytimes.com ^ | March 24, 2003 | JIM DWYER

[Destro]

Hail of Gunfire and Grenades Forces Apaches to Pull Back

By JIM DWYER

IN CENTRAL IRAQ, March 24 - With a hail of small arms fire and rocket-propelled grenades, Iraqi forces downed two Apache helicopters today and forced 30 other helicopters in their brigade back to their base.

One two-member crew was unaccounted for; the other was rescued. Iraqi state television broadcast images of one downed helicopter, which appeared largely intact, and jubilant men dancing around it.

All 32 helicopters sustained some damage, occasionally slight, Army officials said, in what was a significant setback for the allies.

Fighting continued today in Nasiriya, meanwhile, after the death of 10 marines there on Sunday in the deadliest battle of the war so far.

The attack on the helicopters today surprised American Army leaders and may cause them to rethink their military strategy, which relied on the Apaches to destroy Iraq's armored divisions that ring Baghdad.

The commander of the American-led invasion of Iraq confirmed the loss of one Apache helicopter.

``The fate of the crew is uncertain right now,'' Gen. Tommy R. Franks said at a news briefing at Central Command in Qatar. We characterize that crew, two men, as missing in action.''

General Franks denied that the helicopter had been shot down by farmers, as Iraq claimed, but did not say what had forced it out of the air.

A CNN correspondent accompanying the United States Army Fifth Corps 11th Attack Helicopter Regiment, said the unit had been on a night-time combat mission targeting units of the elite Republican Guard.

The correspondent cited one of the pilots as saying they had run into a ``hornet's nest, a barrage of antiaircraft fire,'' near the city of Kerbala, 70 miles southwest of Baghdad, the closest fighting to the Iraqi capital since the war began last Thursday.

The Iraqi Information Minister, Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, said at a news conference: ``Farmers shot down two Apaches. We showed one today and might show the second and the pilots.''

``We are holding several other American and British prisoners and we may show some of them,'' the minister said.

The Apaches use a powerful radar, called the Longbow, that directs their Hellfire missiles.

But the Apaches are suddenly coming under attack from relatively low-technology weaponry.

Saddam Hussein ``is fighting an asymmetrical warfare,'' said Brig. Gen. Benjamin Freakly, assistant commander of the 101st Division. ``This is not tank on tank fighting.''

The attack took place near the village of Abu Mustafe, north of Al Hillah, and capped a punishing 24 hours for the allied offensive.

General Freakly said that in an attack like the one on the helicopters, ``you have 10 guys lying on top of a building firing R.P.G.'s and small arms. You can go in and bomb that building and reduce it to rubble,'' but at the potential cost of many civilian lives.

The Army now may consider new tactics, such as additional close aerial bombardment, to support the Apaches as they hunt for armored divisions.

The Apaches were from the 11th Aviation Regiment, based in Germany, and are attached to the V Corps.

Sandstorms are roiling the area, blowing at 25 knots, and are likely to rise to 40 knots on Tuesday and Wednesday. At 30 knots, a meteorologist said, visibility becomes practically nil.

General Franks also said today that the tenacity of some Iraqi units, including the fedayeen, was no surprise and that American-led forces had had some ``terrific firefights.''

The Republican Guard has been hit, he said, and ``they will continue to be hit, at points and places and times that make sense to us. The effect has been very positive for us.''

[Poohbah]

I am starting to doubt the reports of such kill numbers of tanks. I read where the Iraqis are usuing modified SUVs and Toyota trucks with mounted ordinance--like the so called "technicals" in Somalia. Those might account for the kill count mistaken for tanks. I have not heard of Iraq armor moving out to engage in such numbers yet.

Destro, you sound like you're saying that Apache gunners can't tell the difference between a Toyota pickup truck and an MBT.

[laz17]

Mr. Fedayeen, meet Spooky. Have a nice day!

[TADSLOS]

Those might account for the kill count mistaken for tanks. I have not heard of Iraq armor moving out to engage in such numbers yet

It may very well be that the only Iraqi vehicles moving are these armed SUVs. I would venture to say that a majority of the Republican Guard divisions MBTs and IFVs are already dead and the few remaining are in static defensive postures behind berms abandoned and/or awaiting death.

[enemy9oclock]

If this was a "night-time combat mission", I'm surprised the Iraqis were able to target the Apaches so effectively. Any military-types know whether an RPG is radar guided? Or are the Iraqis demonstrating the use of their new Russian-made nightvision equipment? This wasn't a single, lucky shot - it sounds as though all of the Apaches (30+) had at least some minor damage. No mention at all of radar equipped anti-air weapons, only RPG's and small arms fire.

[CrimeOf73]

I hope we're not sinking into a PC quagmire.

[FreedomPoster]

Bingo - bump for all of that.

Arclight'em.

[Rebelbase]

MOAB

[Johnny Gage]

until the A-10s show up and give them a primer on depleted uranium 30mm ammunition.

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Here come da Hogs

[laz17]

This has got to stop.

Yes, this has got to stop. Do our people really think that if we play nice, those rabid dogs who hate us will hate us a little bit less? Kill 'em all, and let God sort 'em out! They're NEVER going to stop hating us, but at least we can make them FEAR us. We have the power to wipe them out, and we're fighting with one hand tied behind our back and letting them poke us in the eye and grow bolder every time. Enough!

[FreedomPoster]

>>Any military-types know whether an RPG is radar guided?

An RPG is *not* radar guided. It's as low tech as an anti-armor rocket gets, about 1 step up from a WWII bazooka.

[kabar]

Agree with you. This is way we fought in Vietnam. We allowed political concerns to handcuff our military. If total victory is not the objective, we will either lose the war or the subsequent "peace." Look at our last major military involvements--Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf War. We continue to live with these legacies.

[HiTech RedNeck]

I think we are going to have to escalate the force. Bush warned Iraq about human shields. Now it's time to assume they understand that warning (as if they care, which they don't, but at least we lived up to our side of our promise not to deliberately target civilians). But why would a bomb be needed for shooters on top of a building? Why wouldn't grenades suffice?

[Rebelbase]

"Any military-types know whether an RPG is radar guided"

No radar.

[GeorgeWashington777]

I have to agree! I've been worried about what cost to our troops are we willing to be able to not take out enemy or enemy targets!

[vbmoneyspender]

Check here. As noted, a CNN reporter noted that the American commander on the scene had said that the Apaches destroyed approximately 70 Iraqi tanks in the action.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Estimates are that only about 5% of the population are "rabid dogs" (Ba'athist henchmen or supporters). The rest live in fear of Saddam's regime.

It might be instructive however to inquire of those in already liberated areas what they would consider an "acceptable" collateral casualty level for getting rid of the Saddam regime. It might be far higher than we think.

[Rebelbase]

I agree also. This has been my one reservation about this entire confilct. If we don't go in for total annhilation, then a large portion of our casualties will be brought on by our own mercy.

I wonder what the formula the President will use to calcuate the equivalent of Iraqi civilian dead to one US soldier dead?

At what point is the US loss of life so great that mercy is thrown out and total war is engaged?

[over3Owithabrain]

I totally support this war. The reasons given are first and foremost to protect AMERICANS from nuclear/bio attack. The next reason given is regime change - Amen, Saddam needs to go die somewhere if he hasn't already. The liberation of Iraq part has been the toughest sell for me because of what it requires now (risking our military to spare civilians), and the ongoing effort required afterward to keep the peace.
But I accept it as part of the PR aspect and to not leave a power vacuum after Saddam.We've taken the heat for starting this war, we must have the balls to take the heat if some civilians die to insure success and minimize our own casualties.

[HiTech RedNeck]

Dow is down over 300 now that they see we aren't going to end this soon.

Good I can buy a bunch in anticipation of the next major wave of victories.

[over3Owithabrain]

That's not a bad idea lol