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Unpatriotic Conservatives
National Review Online ^ | 4/7/03 (advance) | David Frum

Posted on 03/19/2003 7:57:38 AM PST by Chancellor Palpatine

"I respect and admire the French, who have been a far greater nation than we shall ever be, that is, if greatness means anything loftier than money and bombs."
— THOMAS FLEMING, "HARD RIGHT," MARCH 13, 2003

rom the very beginning of the War on Terror, there has been dissent, and as the war has proceeded to Iraq, the dissent has grown more radical and more vociferous. Perhaps that was to be expected. But here is what never could have been: Some of the leading figures in this antiwar movement call themselves "conservatives."

These conservatives are relatively few in number, but their ambitions are large. They aspire to reinvent conservative ideology: to junk the 50-year-old conservative commitment to defend American interests and values throughout the world — the commitment that inspired the founding of this magazine — in favor of a fearful policy of ignoring threats and appeasing enemies.

And they are exerting influence. When Richard Perle appeared on Meet the Press on February 23 of this year, Tim Russert asked him, "Can you assure American viewers . . . that we're in this situation against Saddam Hussein and his removal for American security interests? And what would be the link in terms of Israel?" Perle rebutted the allegation. But what a grand victory for the antiwar conservatives that Russert felt he had to air it.

(Excerpt) Read more at nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: davidfrum; frum; oldcons; paleocons; pitchforkpat
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To: TradicalRC
You're so right: Forced integration is SO superior to Forced segregation. How could I have been so stupid. Racism is, of course, worse than the use of government force on its own citizens. That must be why Hitler who killed 6 million is more evil than "Uncle Joe" Stalin who killed 40-50 million. It's racism stupid.

Very well said.

441 posted on 03/24/2003 12:20:56 PM PST by Under the Radar
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To: billbears
I sent a letter that was coherent and to the point disagreeing with him completely. Yet I don't see it posted. Why?

Why don't you post it here?

442 posted on 03/24/2003 1:08:30 PM PST by mac_truck (Ora et Labora)
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To: mac_truck
Why don't you post it here?

That's not the point. The issue is that Frum used a liberal tactic of printing only the most vehement letters in disagreement with him. He didn't bother printing the letters that disagreed with him without using racism. If he did, people might see this is more than just a 'fringe' movement of racists.

BTW, shouldn't you be looking for mantras said to symbols by the Founders to support your point of patriotism? That people can't be patriotic unless they say a mantra to a symbol of a document that most don't even know what it says? Can't find one? Call your lib buddy Frum. I'm sure he could deliver one to you. Don't know if it would be valid or coherent, but I know (at least according to some) if I don't say the Pledge of Allegiance (written by a Socialist) apparently I'm not as good of a conservative

443 posted on 03/24/2003 1:23:57 PM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears
So you don't want to post your letter, you just want to complain about it.

At least you could refrain from calling good standing members of the Republican party, liberals. Especially since it has been demonstrated that YOU hold many of the same beliefs as elements of the far left.

-btw You never repsonded to my question about how your christian and southern beliefs (whatever that means) led you to conclude that you support Isreal 100% but oppose going to war with Saddam.

Maybe you could put some meat on them bones for us.

444 posted on 03/24/2003 1:53:55 PM PST by mac_truck (Ora et Labora)
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To: sheltonmac
"Welcome to the Union of Luis Gonzalez, Billbears."

Wrong, is the Union of everyone else that's actually living in this century, and not fighting some war lost two hundred years ago.

Paleocons?

More like Jurassicons actually.

BTW, quit lying about what I say or not say...concentrate on making sense out of what you write, someone needs to.

445 posted on 03/24/2003 2:09:45 PM PST by Luis Gonzalez (The Ever So Humble Banana Republican)
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To: mac_truck
Especially since it has been demonstrated that YOU hold many of the same beliefs as elements of the far left.

LOL!! Me? Liberal? Far left? Please provide evidence of what I believe (besides the war on Iraq) that may or may not agree with the 'far left'. You did say many. That means more than three or four. Or was that just another one of your tactics to throw an all encompassing statement out with no evidence to back it up?

446 posted on 03/24/2003 2:20:58 PM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears; mac_truck
I think mac_truck is raising a valid point here.

If you DID send Mr. Frum such an e-mail, and he did not post it, it would certainly impeach the credibility of this article.

So why not put the e-mail out there?
447 posted on 03/24/2003 2:33:10 PM PST by hchutch ("But tonight we get EVEN!" - Ice-T)
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To: hchutch
I think mac_truck is raising a valid point here.

Personally I don't. My views have been sufficiently expressed here. I am not a racist and none of the statements I have made portray me to be one. However, since you're jumping in mid stream, maybe you can help Mr. Truck in his quest to find a mantra said by the majority of the Founding Fathers to a symbol which stands for the Constitution. Some here are apparently playing the lib game. Presented with an issue that they can't answer, they jump to another issue

448 posted on 03/24/2003 3:09:39 PM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: billbears
I am merely questioning your refusal to provide evidence that you claim to have that would refute Frum. You're leaving the impression that he is a liar. Such a charge is something you have to prove, if you wish to be taken seriously in this debate.

So, do you intend to prove the charge, or do you intend to leave it hanging out there?
449 posted on 03/24/2003 3:20:16 PM PST by hchutch ("But tonight we get EVEN!" - Ice-T)
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To: x
Thanks for your post. Labels, labels, labels. Neocon? Paleocon? Southern agrarian anarchists? I read the Weekly Standard, The American Conservative, National Review, Antiwar.com, and bunch of other sites and columnists. I don't have any flavor of conservatism that I agree with totally.

But for Frum to lump the likes of Raimondo in with Novak is just a disgusting guilt by association tactic (I have never liked Frum- twerp of the first order.)

I find myself in agreement with Buchanan with his last column. Now that the shooting has started let's hope for victory. We can resume the nit picking after when Sadaam is gone.

But overall- when reading the "neocon" war supporters I get a bad feeling that they really don't know what they are talking about, have lied, and are lying about a host of things. I feel they see things- not from how they are- but how they wish them to be. And though I don't agree with much of "paleo" thought I find the "neocon" or pro war right responses to the questions raised by the old right to be troubling (and should raise alarm bells with anyone.)

450 posted on 03/24/2003 3:24:51 PM PST by Burkeman1
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To: billbears
Please provide evidence of what I believe (besides the war on Iraq) that may or may not agree with the 'far left'.

Post the letter and I will. I'm not Kreskin.

451 posted on 03/24/2003 3:58:33 PM PST by mac_truck (Ora et Labora)
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To: mac_truck
I will post the letter tonight. However I am doing you the favor because you made the statement of 'many' beliefs apparently based on previous posts.
452 posted on 03/24/2003 4:03:21 PM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: mac_truck
BTW, found any mantras to symbols before the Pledge of Allegiance written by a Socialist? Of course you haven't!! What would I expect? I'm supposed to give you something to argue on apparently. You throw out a statement on my 'many' beliefs and then require me to present even more because 'you're not Kreskin'. Which begs the question why would you make a statement as you did unless

A) you have evidence based on my previous posts on my 'many' beliefs or
B) like a liberal your accusation was unfounded but you made it anyway because your argument hasn't held water for oh, about 100 posts or so?

Shhhhh....I won't tell anyone...

453 posted on 03/24/2003 4:13:57 PM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: hchutch
I think naming a second is the best shot, frankly. Francis is too sleazy to actually accuse me of anything so he says "consider," "possibly" and all that garbage.

If we had real libel laws in this country I'd go for it, but he's a typical example of a man who can't win an argument so he throws garbage at his betters.

Pity. But not worth anybody's time or trouble.
454 posted on 03/24/2003 6:08:03 PM PST by MLedeen
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To: billbears
I will post the letter tonight

Lol! (yawn)

455 posted on 03/24/2003 10:32:09 PM PST by mac_truck (Ora et Labora)
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To: Burkeman1
Well said.
456 posted on 03/25/2003 9:43:18 AM PST by TradicalRC (Fides quaerens intellectum.)
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To: sheltonmac; billbears
True federalism (at least as the founders understood it) is dead. Luis and others like him believe in a strong, centralized government, the likes of which would have made even Alexander Hamilton blush.

At least Hamilton was open about it.

457 posted on 03/25/2003 7:55:04 PM PST by 4CJ ('No legislative act, therefore, contrary to the Constitution, can be valid.' - Alexander Hamilton)
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To: billbears
I will post the letter tonight. However I am doing you the favor because you made the statement of 'many' beliefs apparently based on previous posts.

Why? Have him post proof supportive of his accusation.

458 posted on 03/25/2003 7:58:11 PM PST by 4CJ ('No legislative act, therefore, contrary to the Constitution, can be valid.' - Alexander Hamilton)
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To: 4ConservativeJustices
You must work for the sanitation department. That would explain the grey uniform.
459 posted on 03/26/2003 8:05:20 AM PST by mac_truck (Ora et Labora)
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Comment #460 Removed by Moderator


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